Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Sea Toby]

HMNZS Charles Upham was sold for $8.7 million. The ship was purchased in 1994 for $14 million. Another $7 million was spent on modifications and the vessel was commissioned into the Royal New Zealand Navy as the HMNZS Charles Upham in October 1995. Mark Burton said the vessel had never carried out the sealift role for which it was originally acquired by the former government. In sea trials the ship broke down in heavy weather and rolled alarmingly. As a result the vessel was tied up awaiting a decision on its future, and then leased on charter. The Sealift Review commissioned by this government estimated the cost of the necessary modifications to enable the vessel to possibly fulfil its intended sealift role at $35-40 million. This was not considered to be a prudent or responsible use of defence resources.

HMNZS Charles Upham
Commissioned in 1995, Completed 1982
Displacement: 7955 Light, 10,500 tonnes: Full Load
Dimensions: 131.7m x 21.1m x 6.2m
Endurance: 7000nm : Speed 14kts
Complement: 32, plus 200 Troops
Machinery: 1 MaK M453AK Diesel Engine – 3590 kW
Stabilizer: none
Weapons: Guns 4 x 12.7mm Machine Guns
Vehicle deck: 440 lane meters
Ramp: Aft
Notes
Proposed modifications would have included the capability to operate 4 Huey helicopters, deck marked for 2 landing zones, hospital facility, and the fitting of Passive Counter measures. Keep in mind she would have lost some of her lane meters with modifications.

HMNZS Canterbury L 421
Commissioned in 2007
Displacement: 7200 Light, 8870 tonnes: Full Load
Dimensions: 131 m x 23.4 m x 5.6 sealift, 4.76 patrol
Endurance: 8000 nm : Speed 19 kts
Complement: 53 navy, 10 air force, 7 army, 4 civil, 35 trainees, 250 Troops
Machinery: 2 Warstila 32 Diesel Engines - 9000 kW, 2 bow thrusters
Stabilizer: 1 set
Weapons: 1 x 25mm Bushmaster, 2 x 12.7mm Machine Guns
Hangar: 1 Seasprite helicopter, 4 NH-90s stored, deck marked for 2 landing zones
Vehicle deck: 403 lane meters, plus 33 containers
Cranes: 2 60 tonnes
Landing craft: 2 LCM-8
Ramp: Aft and Starboard
Notes
MRV is ice strengthened to Class 1C, can break 40cm unbroken first year ice. Has hospiital facility.

Charles Upham price: up to NZ $61 million. Canterbury's price: NZ $250 million. The biggest difference is the Canterbury can do tactical sealift with her boats, the Charles Upham could not. The Charles Upham was also too deep in draft, could not have entered Dili harbor, which wrote her death notice. The current minister of defence called the Charles Upham the ChuckUp. While useful as a cargo vessel for which she was built, she was worthless as a passenger carrier. The Charles Upham renamed Don Carlos is now hauling oranges in the Mediterrean Sea.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Charles Upham

Yeah if I remember right, the stability issues were when she was carrying soldiers, when she was cargo laden it was not so bad, the Chuck up line comes from the squadies from getting pretty badly seasick I would imagine. Really unfortunate for such a proud name, 2 time should of been 3 time VC winner getting a boat like that, I wish they would rename another one the Upham, certainly deserves at least a Ship named after him.

 

[Sea Toby]

For her price the Charles Upham was not such a bad deal, she hauls almost as much as the new Canterbury which cost much more. But her instability without a full load, and her deep draft, made her impractical. She was designed as a cargo vessel, not as a passenger/vehicle ferry as the new MRV. Therefore she made a poor training and patrol vessel, which was expected to consume 90 percent of her duties. And if she was too deep for Dili, one wonders where else she would also be too deep in the South Pacific. At least Canterbury has a shorter draft, and if necessary use her LCMs to offload the Army and its equipment. This tactical sealift ability will pay off dividends many times over for the Canterbury.

 

[mug]

Not quite Project Protector related ... but I see that there's a doco series starting 2 July on RNZN JOCT called "Snotties."

Ten episodes, 10.30pm Tuesdays, TV2.

 

[Sea Toby]

MRV started sea trials 3 July 2007

Read about L 421 Canterbury's sea trials here:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0607/S00062.htm

Ten RNZN personnel are involved with the sea trials, which should resume on 16 July. I suspect they will sail her to Melbourne for final fitout. There is a nice new picture of Canterbury in the Merwede drydock.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Looking

Well isn't the carpet pretty, first time I've seen it on a naval ship, cepth the Jervais Bay, but that was a rental so I don't think it counts.

The Sea Trials seemed to go alright, although they didn't compete all objectives, just hope they weren't major like stability

It looks good in dry dock though very flash, it will be good to see it grace the waves of the South Pac

 

[Whiskyjack]

I wonder what sort of support crew 4 NH90s would require, 40-50? As this would cut into the troop lift. Although I guess there is trainee accommodation for 35 so this could be used for the NH90 detachment?

Anyone know the answer to this?

 

[Lucasnz]

I wonder what sort of support crew 4 NH90s would require, 40-50? As this would cut into the troop lift. Although I guess there is trainee accommodation for 35 so this could be used for the NH90 detachment?

Anyone know the answer to this?

Standard Air Force detachment, including aircrew is around 10 on a frigate.

 

[Sea Toby]

I supposed the personnel needed to maintain four NH90s would use some if not all of the training berths. The MRV has only a hangar for one SeaSprite helicopter, the four NH90s are stored on the vehicle deck. I haven't a clue how many more air force personnel would be needed to maintain and fly the four NH90s. I would assume that the MRV's hangar can also be used to repair the NH90s.

 

[Lucasnz]

I supposed the personnel needed to maintain four NH90s would use some if not all of the training berths. The MRV has only a hangar for one SeaSprite helicopter, the four NH90s are stored on the vehicle deck. I haven't a clue how many more air force personnel would be needed to maintain and fly the four NH90s. I would assume that the MRV's hangar can also be used to repair the NH90s.

I was shown some plans of the MRV which show the SH-2G and NH-90 stowed in the same hangar in the superstructure. The SH was sitting closer to the hangar door, in the section seen in some photos and the NH-90 were stored behind.

 

[Sea Toby]

I wish I could see those plans. I have seen plans of the OPV on the world wide web, but not the MRV. I assumed the helicopters were stored on the vehicle deck. Otherwise why not claim the hangar holds 5 helicopters instead of 1?

The sister civilian ferries do have two vehicle decks, the top deck being the helicopter deck and hangar of the MRV. Its very possible you are correct. Please scan the plans and post them if you can.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I was shown some plans of the MRV which show the SH-2G and NH-90 stowed in the same hangar in the superstructure. The SH was sitting closer to the hangar door, in the section seen in some photos and the NH-90 were stored behind.

I guess it will depend on how they operate. If they plan to operate from the MRV they will need to embark more maintenance people. If on the other hand it is a straight a to b trip then they would have the people meet them at b.

 

[Lucasnz]

I wish I could see those plans. I have seen plans of the OPV on the world wide web, but not the MRV. I assumed the helicopters were stored on the vehicle deck. Otherwise why not claim the hangar holds 5 helicopters instead of 1?

Do you have a link to those plans, by any chance.

 

[Sea Toby]

Its a 4.5 MB PDF file from Aker Yards, which I have downloaded. You can see it at
http://homepage.mac.com/donclark/.Public/NZOPV.pdf.

 

[stryker NZ]

what happens when the MRV needs to go in for repairs i know for certain that it will not fit in the RNZN drydock and i dont think we have any others to the same size. Does that mean it will have to sail to Australia every time.

 

[Lucasnz]

what happens when the MRV needs to go in for repairs i know for certain that it will not fit in the RNZN drydock and i dont think we have any others to the same size. Does that mean it will have to sail to Australia every time.

Are you sure about that. Endeavour fits in, through the MRV is wider, and I've seen most of the Inter Island Ferry's in there. If you're correct it will probably have to go overseas for refits, unless they widen it (which is where the problem is likley to be)

 

[stryker NZ]

Are you sure about that. Endeavour fits in, through the MRV is wider, and I've seen most of the Inter Island Ferry's in there. If you're correct it will probably have to go overseas for refits, unless they widen it (which is where the problem is likley to be)

yeah ive been down into the dry docks recently while they were working on Resolution and one of the workers said that the MRV will be too wide and that their already pushing it when they put endeavour in there

 

[Sea Toby]

It seems the two older Interislander ferries are larger in length and beam than HMNZS Endeavour. The new Kaitaki has the same beam as the new MRV Canterbury, although the Kaitaki is much longer. Obviously the Aratere and Arahura are tighter fits in the drydock than Endeavour.

HMNZS Endeavour 138m x 18.4 m
MV Aratere 150m x 20.25m
MV Arahura 148.3m x 20.25m
MV Kaitaki 181.6m x 23.4m
HMNZS Canterbury 131m x 23.4m

The light cruisers of the RNZN were:
HMNZS Leander/Achilles 159m x 17m
HMNZS Royalist/Black Prince/Bellona 156m x 15.4m

I'm curious to whether Leander and Achilles were able to fit in the drydock at Devenport lenghtwise? I'm assuming they did.

Kaitaki and Canterbury are at least 3 meters larger in beam than the smaller Interislander ferries.

 

[Whiskyjack]

It seems the two older Interislander ferries are larger in length and beam than HMNZS Endeavour. The new Kaitaki has the same beam as the new MRV Canterbury, although the Kaitaki is much longer. Obviously the Aratere and Arahura are tighter fits in the drydock than Endeavour.

HMNZS Endeavour 138m x 18.4 m
MV Aratere 150m x 20.25m
MV Arahura 148.3m x 20.25m
MV Kaitaki 181.6m x 23.4m
HMNZS Canterbury 131m x 23.4m

The light cruisers of the RNZN were:
HMNZS Leander/Achilles 159m x 17m
HMNZS Royalist/Black Prince/Bellona 156m x 15.4m

I'm curious to whether Leander and Achilles were able to fit in the drydock at Devenport lenghtwise? I'm assuming they did.

Kaitaki and Canterbury are at least 3 meters larger in beam than the smaller Interislander ferries.

I pretty sure the dry dock was built to accomadate a heavy cruiser of up to 10,000 tons. In fact I seem to recall a US heavy cruiser was in dry dock for a time during WWII. Leander and Achilles, even the Gambia I think.

Its been a while since I was last there, but can the dry dock be widened?

 

[Sea Toby]

American Heavy Cruisers of World War II
Pensacola class 173.7 x 19.9
Northampton class 177.4 x 20.14
Portland class 180.44 x 20.12
New Orleans class 176.18 x 18.82
Wichita class 182.88 x 18.82
Baltimore class 202.39 x 21.59
Des Moines class 213.36 x 22.96*

American Light Cruisers of World War II
Brooklyn class 182.88 x 18.22
Atlanta class 161.55 x 16.21
Cleveland class 182.88 x 20.22
Worchester class 202.39 x 21.54*

HMNZS Gambia 163.98 x 18.9

*commissioned after the war.

It seems the earlier built American cruisers have 20.14 meters in beam or less, the Northampton class being the largest. The longest length of the earlier built American heavy cruisers was 180.44 meters of the Portland class, but there were many Brooklyn class light cruisers stationed in Australia at 182.88 meters in length. By the time the Wichita, Baltimore and Cleveland classes arrived into the fleet, the Central Pacific drive had started.

A new agreement was reached between the AHB, the New Zealand Government and the Admiralty in 1936, whereby land, workshops, wharves, jetties and seabed belonging to the AHB were transferred to the Crown, while ownership of Calliope Dock remained with the AHB. Admiralty rights also remained intact. The AHB undertook to modernize certain dock equipment, to reconstruct wharves and to lengthen the dock so it would take a Leander-Class cruiser.

Achilles and Leander had a length of 159m, the American heavy cruisers had a length of 173m to 180m. Gambia had a length of 164m.