Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[old faithful]

Maybe run it by China, you know, to make sure they are OK with it.

@old faithful

Play nice please

Alexsa

Tongue very firmly in cheek. I have worked with my Kiwi brothers in the past, and their professionalism is never questioned, great troops, some of the world's best imo.
Just having a dig at their countries wokeness, and their governments unwillingness to contribute anything of value, including support of the ANZAC tradition.

 

[Massive]

Speaking of OPV replacements, the Fassmer OPV 80 S has to be the most flexible, badass 80m OPV I've ever seen:
Mk 41 VLS! 8 x SSM! 11t helo! Towed sonar array! 76mm gun!

https://www.fassmer.de/fileadmin/user_upload/6_Fassmer_Defence/21_06_FD_Sb_OPV_80_S_web.pdf

Is this realistic in a sub 2000t ship? Also claims 14,500nm range & 30 day endurance.

Regards,

Massive

 

[alexsa]

Tongue very firmly in cheek. I have worked with my Kiwi brothers in the past, and their professionalism is never questioned, great troops, some of the world's best imo.
Just having a dig at their countries wokeness, and their governments unwillingness to contribute anything of value, including support of the ANZAC tradition.

Thanks for that .... just wary of some of the less well intentioned banter going on.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Both those vessels are interesting and just to throw another two into the mix, there's this:
https://www.fassmer.de/fileadmin/user_upload/6_Fassmer_Defence/21_06_FD_Sb_PK_90_web.pdf and this: https://www.fassmer.de/fileadmin/user_upload/6_Fassmer_Defence/21_06_FD_Sb_MPV_120_web.pdf. Both have distinct advantages.

Some of these Fassmer boats look great on paper. I don't have any real understanding of how ships work performance wise so i really value the knowledge some forum members bring to DT.
Imagine if we replaced the Otago and Wellington with 2 (3 fingers crossed) ships with these capabilities.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

The weapons won't or wouldn't be installed... far too much bang-bang kablooey stuff... if anything it would just be "fitted for but never installed" or even bought to make sure it fits and works...

 

[Shanesworld]

Is this realistic in a sub 2000t ship? Also claims 14,500nm range & 30 day endurance.

Regards,

Massive

Probably only achieves that at 50,000 ft with no afterburner. Looks abit sus.

 

[Meriv90]

Can I ask, if it was knew the price of P-1 and C-2 offered to NZ?

Thanks in advance

 

[chis73]

Can I ask, if it was knew the price of P-1 and C-2 offered to NZ?

Thanks in advance

As far as I am aware, no figures have been published (I would assume they would be confidential anyway).

However, the Japanese Ministry of Defence freely publish their yearly budgets in english (link). You may have to go back a year or two, but you can see what they have been paying for P-1s & C-2s themselves.

 

[Meriv90]

Thanks I was more wondering if they offered a big discount since NZ would have been the first buyer but as you said numbers are confidential.

 

[ngatimozart]

Can I ask, if it was knew the price of P-1 and C-2 offered to NZ?

Thanks in advance

As @chis73 has said the prices offered to NZ are confidential, but the flyaway costs that I have from about four years ago put the C-2 at around NZ$280 million and the P-1 at around NZ$250 million each. The NZ MoD have found from aircraft acquisition projects, that costs of simulators, manuals, training, documentation, maintenance contracts etc., amount to approximately 50% of the flyaway cost of the aircraft.

 

[RetirementIsGood]

As @chis73 has said the prices offered to NZ are confidential, but the flyaway costs that I have from about four years ago put the C-2 at around NZ$280 million and the P-1 at around NZ$250 million each. The NZ MoD have found from aircraft acquisition projects, that costs of simulators, manuals, training, documentation, maintenance contracts etc., amount to approximately 50% of the flyaway cost of the aircraft.

In this case, the cost of manuals, training, documentation etc are likely to be higher as they would require translation from Japanese.
This is a very difficult job because the translators need not only a full understanding of Japanese and NZ English technical terms in the relevant technical areas (airframe & jet engine engineering, electronics, acoustics & ICT systems) but also appropriate security clearances as quite a bit of the P-1 kit would be quite highly classified.

 

[ddxx]

An interesting report by the Australian National University into the Hunter Class program with the following key conclusion and policy recommendation:

“The Government review its decision to prioritise a slow continuous shipbuilding program over the strategic risk described in the Strategic Update 2020. Could SEA 5000 deliver capability at a signifcantly faster tempo and at a lower cost-per-unit if the Navy acquired more than 9 frigates, or built additional frigates for allies such as New Zealand?”

http://sdsc.bellschool.anu.edu.au/s...series-59-sea-5000-future-frigate-program.pdf

 

[MrConservative]

An interesting report by the Australian National University into the Hunter Class program with the following key conclusion and policy recommendation:

“The Government review its decision to prioritise a slow continuous shipbuilding program over the strategic risk described in the Strategic Update 2020. Could SEA 5000 deliver capability at a signifcantly faster tempo and at a lower cost-per-unit if the Navy acquired more than 9 frigates, or built additional frigates for allies such as New Zealand?”

http://sdsc.bellschool.anu.edu.au/s...series-59-sea-5000-future-frigate-program.pdf

Could it build them for a price closer to the Constellation Class at around USD$1.1 - $1.2B if say another three were tacked on?

 

[ddxx]

Could it build them for a price closer to the Constellation Class at around USD$1.1 - $1.2B if say another three were tacked on?

It’s very difficult to compare prices as the US only provides per hull acquisition pricing, where as AU packages their programs all together with all associated costs.

However, given most recent senate estimates and reports, Hunter is comparable in price to Constellation on a ship only, cost per tonne basis.

 

[MrConservative]

In this case, the cost of manuals, training, documentation etc are likely to be higher as they would require translation from Japanese.
This is a very difficult job because the translators need not only a full understanding of Japanese and NZ English technical terms in the relevant technical areas (airframe & jet engine engineering, electronics, acoustics & ICT systems) but also appropriate security clearances as quite a bit of the P-1 kit would be quite highly classified.

Those people are there and exist, particularly around the Nagoya area which is the home to the big auto makers and the aerospace industry in Japan. Often is a lucrative second career for ex US service personnel who stay on in country who can maintain US Commercial Service accreditation. The big Japanese Corporates have their own in house teams as well. Getting to Standard American or British English seemingly is no trouble after a time and some impressive translation fees but NZ English in written form - I don't think they would understand. Is it a thing?

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

but NZ English in written form - I don't think they would understand. Is it a thing?

Wait it's a thing??? LOL

 

[Meriv]

Didn't the July report of the Australian National University, removed the infrastructure cost of 10+bln and a contingency of 20% still estimate an AUSD cost of 1600 costellation/1900T26/3800Hunter
?

Strategic & Defence Studies Centre › ...PDF
Web results
Centre of Gravity 59 - SEA 5000 Future Frigate Program

 

[MrConservative]

It’s very difficult to compare prices as the US only provides per hull acquisition pricing, where as AU packages their programs all together with all associated costs.

However, given most recent senate estimates and reports, Hunter is comparable in price to Constellation on a ship only, cost per tonne basis.

Yes - such major weapon systems like a Frigate or F/A-18E are reported in the US Navy Budget Justification Book giving the Gross Weapon Cost that transacts between the Department and the Navy or is reported by the Congressional Budget office which gives the latest build of a Connie Class at USD$1087m. But would like to see a costing methodology that shows this. If you have a link to that Senate Estimates Report on the Type 26 Hunter Class that would be useful as it would save wading through OZ Government documents to find it.

 

[ddxx]

Yes - such major weapon systems like a Frigate or F/A-18E are reported in the US Navy Budget Justification Book giving the Gross Weapon Cost that transacts between the Department and the Navy or is reported by the Congressional Budget office which gives the latest build of a Connie Class at USD$1087m. But would like to see a costing methodology that shows this. If you have a link to that Senate Estimates Report on the Type 26 Hunter Class that would be useful as it would save wading through OZ Government documents to find it.

Absolutely - easier as it’s actually quoted in the report from the ANU too:

“In September 2020 Defence advised the Senate Economics Reference Committee that the cost per ton for the frst three frigates would be A$ 257,000”

 

[MrConservative]

Absolutely - easier as it’s actually quoted in the report from the ANU too:

“In September 2020 Defence advised the Senate Economics Reference Committee that the cost per ton for the first three frigates would be A$ 257,000”

Thanks for that.

The US Navy’s proposed FY2022 budget requests $1,087.9 million (i.e., about $1.1 billion) for the procurement of the third FFG-62 which is 7291 tonnes (i.e., about 7300 tonnes) this means it is circa AUD$206,000 a tonne.