Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

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kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Kiwigov said:
Probably off-topic for the RNZN thread, but consideration of a long-term naval threat to NZ from climate change is indicated from reviewing the latest published research on forecast killer heatwaves in Northern China and India (i.e. the 'wet bulb temperature', where a combination of high heat and humidity can kill). Given the worsening outlook for these events, then this reinforces the logic in the recent Defence Policy Statement. One can all too easily imagine the adverse naval implications of other, better-armed countries demanding access to cooler Southern climes for their (high-status) citizens
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K

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Were already getting organised networks of people smugglers bringing albeit smaller numbers here illegally, on forged visas, according to media reports and Immigration Nz themselves. Im concerned about Nz one day seeing boatloads of them coming by sea, fortunatly they have much further to come than Australia, but with enough desperate to pay, how long before they have capable ships to do so? Do we have enough Mpa planes and patrol ships to counter even that?
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Kiwigov said:
Probably off-topic for the RNZN thread, but consideration of a long-term naval threat to NZ from climate change is indicated from reviewing the latest published research on forecast killer heatwaves in Northern China and India (i.e. the 'wet bulb temperature', where a combination of high heat and humidity can kill). Given the worsening outlook for these events, then this reinforces the logic in the recent Defence Policy Statement. One can all too easily imagine the adverse naval implications of other, better-armed countries demanding access to cooler Southern climes for their (high-status) citizens
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Not so much that, but more so access to fresh water and arable land - food security.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
kiwipatriot69 said:
Were already getting organised networks of people smugglers bringing albeit smaller numbers here illegally, on forged visas, according to media reports and Immigration Nz themselves. Im concerned about Nz one day seeing boatloads of them coming by sea, fortunatly they have much further to come than Australia, but with enough desperate to pay, how long before they have capable ships to do so? Do we have enough Mpa planes and patrol ships to counter even that?
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Doesn't matter how many MPAs and OPVs a nation has if you have a spineless government that won't enforce its own immigration laws. You can guess which country I am referring to.
 
B

beegee

Active Member
FORBIN said:
Please what launcher with how many Sea Sceptor for ANZAC FFGs upgraded ?
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According to the October 2015 issue of APDR, there will be 20 bespoke Sea Ceptor launchers.

New Zealand is the first export customer and is buying 20 launchers per ship. The current Mk41 VLS launcher system, which is capable of taking a range of missiles from Standard and Tomahawk to Sea Sparrow, is being removed. The new standalone launchers, which can only take Sea Ceptor missiles, are much smaller. They will take space on just one of the three decks occupied by the Mk41 launcher system and free up a lot of additional room on the frigates.
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beegee

Active Member
Korea Rocks! Fast, efficient, high quality and cheap. We should get all our ships built there.

When we come to replace the ANZACs we should get them to build us three T26s at a fraction of the cost the British and Aussies are paying for theirs. Then gloat about it.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
beegee said:
According to the October 2015 issue of APDR, there will be 20 bespoke Sea Ceptor launchers.
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New Zealand is the first export customer and is buying 20 launchers per ship. The current Mk41 VLS launcher system, which is capable of taking a range of missiles from Standard and Tomahawk to Sea Sparrow, is being removed. The new standalone launchers, which can only take Sea Ceptor missiles, are much smaller. They will take space on just one of the three decks occupied by the Mk41 launcher system and free up a lot of additional room on the frigates.
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I thought the ANZACs only had self-defence length Mk 41, for Sea Sparrow initially.
 
R

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
beegee said:
Korea Rocks! Fast, efficient, high quality and cheap. We should get all our ships built there.

When we come to replace the ANZACs we should get them to build us three T26s at a fraction of the cost the British and Aussies are paying for theirs. Then gloat about it.
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And every single cent goes into the Korean Economy, meanwhile tens of Billions goes into the Australian Economy employing Australian Tax payers being employed by Tax Paying Companies who pay GST.
I doubt it would be anywhere near as cheap as you think, don't forget BAE own the Type 26 design so they will be collecting their cut as well.
Australia's upfront cost for building the Type 26 and future Surface Combatants is very high yes but the amount that will come back to the Government in Taxes and the decades of steady employment that will keep people out of the Dole Office will effectively cut that cost substantily.
64% of the Hunter Class will be manufactured in Australia thats over 50,000 tons.
Should NZ buy them from Australia? probably not, South Korea would be a better bet for NZ with only 2 Ships(3 very unlikely) for Australia with a big enough Navy to maintain a Continous build if properley managed we are better off building our own.
 
4

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
FORBIN said:
Aotearoa the former retired is Endeavour what stupidity to have yet retired !
HMNZS Aotearoa (A12) - Wikipédia
HMNZS Endeavour (A11) - Wikipedia
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Apologies for the mistake. In my defence, it was very late at night when I wrote that!

Beegee
Korea does have a very efficient ship-building industry. Given their wage rates are now at western levels, they rely on economies of scale and production efficiency. It is still leaving then vulnerable to lower-cost yards in China and elsewhere, hence the desire to move up the value chain into military vessels.
 
4

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Redlands18 said:
And every single cent goes into the Korean Economy, meanwhile tens of Billions goes into the Australian Economy employing Australian Tax payers being employed by Tax Paying Companies who pay GST.
I doubt it would be anywhere near as cheap as you think, don't forget BAE own the Type 26 design so they will be collecting their cut as well.
Australia's upfront cost for building the Type 26 and future Surface Combatants is very high yes but the amount that will come back to the Government in Taxes and the decades of steady employment that will keep people out of the Dole Office will effectively cut that cost substantily.
64% of the Hunter Class will be manufactured in Australia thats over 50,000 tons.
Should NZ buy them from Australia? probably not, South Korea would be a better bet for NZ with only 2 Ships(3 very unlikely) for Australia with a big enough Navy to maintain a Continous build if properley managed we are better off building our own.
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The question is how far you want to take this argument? At it's logical extreme, self-reliance ('juche') is the guiding principle of the North Korean economy, and it hasn't worked too well for them.

Is it wise for Canada to pay for more to build two medium-sized AORs locally than the UK paid to buy four large AORs from S Korea?

I'm comfortable with paying a modest premium to have something locally built. I'm less happy paying way over the odds to create an industry that will never have any prospect of survival without continual government support.
 
X

Xthenaki

Active Member
Redlands18 said:
And every single cent goes into the Korean Economy, meanwhile tens of Billions goes into the Australian Economy employing Australian Tax payers being employed by Tax Paying Companies who pay GST.
I doubt it would be anywhere near as cheap as you think, don't forget BAE own the Type 26 design so they will be collecting their cut as well.
Australia's upfront cost for building the Type 26 and future Surface Combatants is very high yes but the amount that will come back to the Government in Taxes and the decades of steady employment that will keep people out of the Dole Office will effectively cut that cost substantily.
64% of the Hunter Class will be manufactured in Australia thats over 50,000 tons.
Should NZ buy them from Australia? probably not, South Korea would be a better bet for NZ with only 2 Ships(3 very unlikely) for Australia with a big enough Navy to maintain a Continous build if properley managed we are better off building our own.
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I believe that in principal your approach is correct. Australia has a large prosperous economy and this means government support is available. All the large nations will support their own defence industries. Australia with such large maritime boundaries needs an efficient navy. Spain as an example of development of a smaller nation built small numbers of merchant ships before becoming a now recognised naval shipbuilder. Where I am coming from here is that with good planning and industrial efficencies it is possible. Once proven the following stage is to provide design and build to export. As far as NZ is concerned - Initially Sth Korea is the best option providing they can maintain peace with North Korea. In the longer term buying from Australia makes sense but only if they are competitive.
 
alexsa

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
beegee said:
Korea Rocks! Fast, efficient, high quality and cheap. We should get all our ships built there.

When we come to replace the ANZACs we should get them to build us three T26s at a fraction of the cost the British and Aussies are paying for theirs. Then gloat about it.
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And to do that you are assuming that BAE would transfer the IP to a Korean yard to build a T26 for NZ. I suspect that will be tightly controlled given it is the advantage of the design.

The AOR on the other hand is a commercial design and is provided as part of the contract.

I suspect the cost of building the Hunter Class in Australia will not be as dire as predicted as efficiencies of scale will improve over time and reflecting on the fact the shipyard will be new and very automated. Using the logic of many of the comments all Western Navy’s should subcontract their warship building to Korea based on price.

I would note that evidence from the DDG is the build quality was very good and there is a LOT to be said for maintaining full control of your QA.
 
K

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
beegee said:
Korea Rocks! Fast, efficient, high quality and cheap. We should get all our ships built there.

When we come to replace the ANZACs we should get them to build us three T26s at a fraction of the cost the British and Aussies are paying for theirs. Then gloat about it.
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And i would throw in the Southern Ocean patrol vessel and littoral support vessels built there too, notice things have been pretty quiet on those subjects.Are I heard a few months ago a commercial design proposed for manuwanui replacement , a far cry from what was intended, Surely South Korea could come up with something for both?
 
X

Xthenaki

Active Member
kiwipatriot69 said:
And i would throw in the Southern Ocean patrol vessel and littoral support vessels built there too, notice things have been pretty quiet on those subjects.Are I heard a few months ago a commercial design proposed for manuwanui replacement , a far cry from what was intended, Surely South Korea could come up with something for both?
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With regard to the Southern Patrol vessel I would like to see Mr Mark defer this (forthcoming defence review) to prioritise an early third frigate aquisition.ideally if possible a T26 out of South Korea or UK (they are also looking for exports) with the remaining two programmed as the ANZACs retire either built in Sth Korea, UK or Australia. The Southern Patrol vessel may suit an icebreaker as a better design.
 
X

Xthenaki

Active Member
Xthenaki said:
With regard to the Southern Patrol vessel I would like to see Mr Mark defer this (forthcoming defence review) to prioritise an early third frigate aquisition.ideally if possible a T26 out of South Korea or UK (they are also looking for exports) with the remaining two programmed as the ANZACs retire either built in Sth Korea, UK or Australia. The Southern Patrol vessel may suit an icebreaker as a better design.
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When I think of the Southern Ocean we need a vessel that has length, a wide beam, deep draft and high freeboard. I was once told that the first ANZAC we deployed to the Southern Ocean experienced a lot of difficulty as did one of our OPV's recently.
 
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