I agree with you completely here. Look at less capable cheaper options that would supplement the OPV's.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
This would probably be the preferred option but another maybe the AW109 or variant that could add to the present AW109 fleet at a later stage.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Yes the AW109 or variant has the advantage of commonality within the current NZDF fleet (as likely Defence would not want to bring another design into the wider fleet, with different support and training requirements). Might suit most AoG type support needs?
The AW109 though does carry a much smaller underslung load compared to anything else (eg Seasprite, Seahawk etc) and has smaller cabin space. Noting that the RNZN dive team have been deploying in the very large USN MH-53 on exercises so perhaps their requirements might be better suited to something larger, in our case Seahawk (as presumably the RAN divers use as well)?
(Musn't forget RobC's words of wisdom - buy and operate milspec capabilities as much as possible)!
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Yeah four years seems to be the typical order/delivery timeframe for Seahawks judging by other recent international orders. But judging by the certainty of this deal for NZ (and presumably there might have been some "healthy" discussions between the two sides) it would be interesting if the US can offer to supply an airframe (or two) in say half that time frame in order to kick start the transition away from Seasprite?
However USN do not appear to be ordering MH-60R for themselves in FY25 and FY26 to enable this, so long shot if possible, it may mean diverting an international order, which if I understand the FMS process they are designated as USN anyway initially (ok might be poor choices of wording on my behalf but others more knowledgeable might be able to spell the process out better).
Failing that surely some refurbished cabs could be utilised in the interim instead (S-70?), much like how Kaman provided interim refurbished SH-2F's to the NZDF in the late '90's until the newbuilt SH-2G(NZ)'s were ready, back in the early 2000's? At least the S-70 is cleared for most of the functionality the RNZN needs?
Aluminium Hail
Member
Ran into a contractor in Blenhiem today that is in town to cut up and scrap the remaining five Orions. End of an era, at least one has been saved.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
RNZAF has finialized a lease to buy for two A321XLRs.
New Zealand Air Force Finalizes A321XLR Lease Deal With Air Lease | Aviation Week Network
New Zealand Air Force Finalizes A321XLR Lease Deal With Air Lease | Aviation Week Network
why are we wasting money on two airliners which contribute nothing to our ability to defend our selves in the event of conflict in our area when we are short of every thing else we need to set up a propper defence? I suspect the answer is in the politicians ego's
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Probably VIP application trumps military applications, they are pollies. Hardly ideal but better than nothing.
RetirementIsGood
Member
As I understand it, the critical determinant was the aborted Antarctic re-supply mission: the ability to leave Christchurch, fly to McMurdo, find it's clagged in / runway blocked / otherwise unavailable, and fly back to Christchurch.
An B787/A330 would be too big for McMurdo, they don't make C-17s anymore, and the B737 doesn't have the legs. An A400 might fit the mission, but would be a complete orphan out here, and it wouldn't do the VIP work. What's left: A321XLR
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Any Antarctica req for me is a bit questionable. The New York Air National Guard's 139th Airlift Squadron has used LC-130H's flying between Christchurch and McMurdo to support Antarctic ops by the US National Science Foundation. This in turn strongly suggests to me that NZ could (possibly with suitable modifications) either operate RNZAF C-130J's to support Antarctic stations, or else more C-130's could be purchased by NZ and then be modified for Antarctic ops.
If either is accurate, then purchasing a civilian airliner is not actually necessary to support Kiwi Antarctic missions and references to it as a requirement become less reason and more justification/excuse.
Kawasaki C2?
As I understand it, the critical determinant was the aborted Antarctic re-supply mission: the ability to leave Christchurch, fly to McMurdo, find it's clagged in / runway blocked / otherwise unavailable, and fly back to Christchurch.
An B787/A330 would be too big for McMurdo, they don't make C-17s anymore, and the B737 doesn't have the legs. An A400 might fit the mission, but would be a complete orphan out here, and it wouldn't do the VIP work. What's left: A321XLR
Sorry to say, but whats left is a favour from the RAAF.
An B787/A330 would be too big for McMurdo, they don't make C-17s anymore, and the B737 doesn't have the legs. An A400 might fit the mission, but would be a complete orphan out here, and it wouldn't do the VIP work. What's left: A321XLR
Sorry to say, but whats left is a favour from the RAAF.
Impressive plane on a walk through with stats that would suite many a defence force needing logistics with long legs.
With Mogami GPF for the RAN and potential other navy’s, defence exports may start to be a thing for Japan.
C2 has a potential global market.
A good fit for the NZDF.
Cheers S
Agree with the sentiment but the fact is the RNZAF will get plenty of use out of them.
RNZAF C-130J will continue to run Antarctic ops, just that when there's a number of pax or VIPs to move they'll use the XLR's.
Australia also uses Skytraders flying A319-LR's for its Antarctic resupply missions. Airbus A319-115LR – Australian Antarctic Program
Aluminium Hail
Member
WRT C-130 ops to the ice. In the event that a safe landing on Pegasus airfield is not possible i.e. total white-out conditions, there are more possible C-130-suitable airfields in the region than 757 suitable ones. There is also an area of flat ice and snow (the whiteout area)where a shallow descent can be made until impact with the ground. In other words a controlled crash.
With modern GPS based RNAV/RNP approaches this is much less likely but is still possible. In the case of landing/crashing in the whiteout area, it is likely that the aircraft will be lost but people will survive. Obviously doing this in a ski equipped LC-130 is much safer but the RNZAF is not going to be buying them.
However, using the same plan for a low wing jet airliner is problematic as the large turbofans and/or long undercarriage are likely to catch on the surface and significantly increase risk. Therefore the only option is to fly an approach and landing 'blind'. This was the cause and result of the emergency landing in 2013 Source: TAIC https://share.google/ccr2y6hksGHYqZvxa and is the reason an aircraft with no point-of-no-return on Antarctic flights was deemed necessary.
The only civilian aircraft of 757/737/A320/A321 size that can do it is the A321XLR. I'm not suggesting it is better than a large military option but that is the logic behind the Antarctic requirements.
With modern GPS based RNAV/RNP approaches this is much less likely but is still possible. In the case of landing/crashing in the whiteout area, it is likely that the aircraft will be lost but people will survive. Obviously doing this in a ski equipped LC-130 is much safer but the RNZAF is not going to be buying them.
However, using the same plan for a low wing jet airliner is problematic as the large turbofans and/or long undercarriage are likely to catch on the surface and significantly increase risk. Therefore the only option is to fly an approach and landing 'blind'. This was the cause and result of the emergency landing in 2013 Source: TAIC https://share.google/ccr2y6hksGHYqZvxa and is the reason an aircraft with no point-of-no-return on Antarctic flights was deemed necessary.
The only civilian aircraft of 757/737/A320/A321 size that can do it is the A321XLR. I'm not suggesting it is better than a large military option but that is the logic behind the Antarctic requirements.
yep this is an excuse but if correct why are they not being paid for out of the Antarctic's budget, perhaps form a government flight run by Air NZ and give the money back to defence.