t68
Well-Known Member
Cheers thank for that infomation.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
So what would this mean for us, C17 Could be still on the menu for NZDF, due to budget cuts in the USAF?
t68
Well-Known Member
Highly unlikely, but congress from what I can gather has a knack for giveing defence things they don't need or want as it effects their local constitutes(pork barreling)
The option is still there from the above posts for the remaining white tail. It would be good to see a report of predicted useage if it would be worthwhile embedding the single white tail into the RAAF fleet and tasking fleshed out utilising 36 Squadron aircraft. I suspect not but others would have a better understanding of RNZAF tasking.
You can interpret it any way you wish but knowing full well how NZDF operates & more specifically Treasury it could still be on the cards 3 x refurb birds vs 1 x new + 2 x refurb then it starts looking very attractive to;
1. Treasury
2. Cabinet, &
3. NZDF
But like all on here when I see a formal FMS request and it being passed by Congress then and only then will I be happy for RNZAF/NZDF.
CD
Well it depends on a lot of things. Yes Congress is finicky at the best of times, however if the aircraft are being laid up because of cost then it's different. It's not like the A10 saga where a whole platform is being attempted to be retired. This is 16 or maybe 32 aircraft out of 229 plus they have their C5M Galaxy fleet, so its not really a major issue in that aspect. We'll just have to wait and see.
Zero Alpha
New Member
Especially when there were concerns we wouldn't be putting enough hours on the airframes. C-17 is apparently built for 30,000 flight hours (presumably at cruise power/altitude). Having some hours on the clock probably isn't a big deal, especially if they were upgraded to the latest configuration.
Worth remembering that the USAF was forced to accept more C-17s than it wanted by congress.
So if this comes to pass, and we acquire say two or even three C17s what do we get for the tactical airlifting? Will it be C130Js? Or a combination of A400M and C295?
Exactly ZA that's what I was thinking we (NZDF) has a long history of purchasing second hand equipment to stay within budget and there should be enough C17 with very low flight hours
t68
Well-Known Member
I wonder how much it is to zero hour and up grade the originals if it came to that as I imagine you would want the ER version.
Well there will not be both C17 and A400 on the flight line together. It will be one or the other.
If they decide C 17, cannot see more than 2 which hopefully would leave enough dollars for C27
If we did get C17 I cannot see us getting A400 as well, too similar in capabillity, one or the other with the money better spent aqquiring a smaller lifter (C27,C295) to complement especially if we are under-utilising the current C130 volume wise for the majority of the time now.
I guess in saying that a C130j would be the smaller version of the C17 anyway haha.
There is no separate replacement project. All airlift is being looked at. How we can best use an aircraft for each and every task we do or will do for the next 20 years or so.
This could range from another bigger helo right up to C17.
But I think the days of replacing a herk for a herk is gone.
Im very aware of that & all my post have been on the premise of IF they purchase 3x C17 something smaller will have to be purchased in phase two to replace the C130H in the tactical role whether that's a C27J type or CH47F helo. C17 will take the strategic role off the B757 leaving the tactical role to something smaller. All this is moot anyway until we see something concrete out of MoD and naturally FMS in USA.
The thing about a C17 / C27J or C295 combo is that you are going from two very large strategic lift aircraft capable of carrying 70 tonnes to a medium tactical aircraft capable of lifting 8.1 tonnes for the C27J and 9.2 tonnes for the C295 with possibly nothing in between. So if you need to move a 15 tonne load do you use the C17 or two trips by medium tactical airlifter if the load can be broken down. So maybe there has to be something in the middle which can handle strategic and tactical. For example if two C17s were acquired then why not three A400M and then some medium tactical lifters? That would give five aircraft capable of strategic lift which is important. Only having two aircraft capable of strategic lift would be a huge mistake and a backwards step.
Apparently earlier this year some Future Air Mobility Capability Project team members lead by an Army one star visited the RAF and looked at how they used their A400s and I would presume how the RAF utilised the C17 / A400 combo. The RAF are using that combo without a medium tactical fixed wing airlifter, instead using the CH47 in that role. The FAMCP team certainly have a very interesting and highly important project because IIRC this will be the first time since WW2 that fixed wing air transport / mobility has had to be totally replaced at once. It will be most interesting to see what they come up with.
EDIT - ADDITION
Something else I just thought about which involves the pollies and their VIP flights. I believe that Air NZ will be getting rid of its B767s as more if its new B787-9 Dreamliners come online. Maybe two of those B767s could be converted ta combi, the same way the B757s were done. After all the NZG is a very large shareholder in Air NZ. Just a thought.
Apparently earlier this year some Future Air Mobility Capability Project team members lead by an Army one star visited the RAF and looked at how they used their A400s and I would presume how the RAF utilised the C17 / A400 combo. The RAF are using that combo without a medium tactical fixed wing airlifter, instead using the CH47 in that role. The FAMCP team certainly have a very interesting and highly important project because IIRC this will be the first time since WW2 that fixed wing air transport / mobility has had to be totally replaced at once. It will be most interesting to see what they come up with.
EDIT - ADDITION
Something else I just thought about which involves the pollies and their VIP flights. I believe that Air NZ will be getting rid of its B767s as more if its new B787-9 Dreamliners come online. Maybe two of those B767s could be converted ta combi, the same way the B757s were done. After all the NZG is a very large shareholder in Air NZ. Just a thought.
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t68
Well-Known Member
Certantly would be interesting to see if all the lucky stars lined up and C17 was approved.
According to this NEW ZEALAND DEFENCE FORCE ANNUAL REPORT 2014 C130 achieved a use of 78% of budgeted hours in support of strategic and tactical goals, I have not see report on said tasking if they made efficient use of said equipment others may have a breakdown on that.
But having said that I think it would be too large a jump from C17 down to C27J but that comes down to tasking
When the A400M becomes a TINA proposition if/when the C-17 is ruled out their wont be much left for the mooted twin tactical either as they will likely stick it to us.
Airlift capability also needs to be filtered alongside Sealift. Ideally anyway. What are the vignettes and operational contexts? Volume is also a consideration and not just weight/range. There are compromises always when it is a small somewhat geographically isolated Defence Force.
There's only one unsold C-17, & they're not making any more, so I can't see more than one.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Been on on Ministry of defence webpage, evidently C130 Lep on Nz 7004 was delivered 8/9/2010, Nz7003 12/11/2010, Nz 7001 22/2/2013 and 7005 19/11/14, i presume last one hasnt been finished its Lep, still seeing its only ten year cover, this is going to leave us less two airlifters by 2020.
Would we be able to introduce a replacement in time before this happens, seeing the C17 numbers arent available, and A400 production is slow?
Would we be able to introduce a replacement in time before this happens, seeing the C17 numbers arent available, and A400 production is slow?