Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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the road runner

Active Member
but the history of the Collins subs has not been a good one ever since the first boat hit the water - noisy hull, combat system replaced, lack of crew, unavailability of more than one boat. Not a story that makes you feel confident and secure. I just about fell off my chair three years ago when the last White Paper came out and the then PM Rudd announced that Australia was going to build 12 new submarines.
I think you will find that newspapers are very ill informed on defence matters.
Most of the information regarding the operations that collins has been involved in is not in the public domain.From the information coming from our Allies such as the US Navy our boats are very capable ocean going subs.Collins and the Japanese boats are one of the only subs that can play with nuke boats.A number of people who actually worked on the Collins program frequent this website ... GF being a wealth of information on collins.

Government did not have a spares inventory for the running of our subs. The engine manufacture of the collins shut shop after the build contract was over.This caused us issues in getting spare parts for the engine.In regards to availability it has been said a number of times here that a ratio of 5-1 is needed. We need a minimum of 5 subs to have one available for operations. The other subs would be in work up,training of crew and different levels of maintenance.If we were able to get 8 subs as originally planed we could have had 2 boats operational at any one time.


I think the government has realised that a larger sub fleet is needed to have 2 or even 3 subs available at any one time.Thus the call for 12 boats.But a number of Defence pros here recon we will not get 12 boats.
 

protoplasm

Active Member
The Defence pros here must have a number! How many do they believe we will get then ?
The main problem with predicitng a total number is that the build program is likely to run across at least 3 elections, and probably more. So whatever is planned for is just as likely to be changed or dismantled by whichever bunch of incompetent morons are elected each time. The lack of bipartisan commitment to defence capability makes predicitng ship building numbers a crystal ball process.

I wonder if there is much contemplation given to a sole source 15 year, $20bn contract for 8 subs with cancellation clauses worse than just finishing the build.
 

weegee

Active Member
I see Canberra is having a bit of fun of Jervis Bay at the moment. Having followed her travels on the way down I see she seems to have maxed out at 22.8 knots. Not to shabby, I wonder how much extra she has up her sleeve if any? According to Wiki she is supposed to have a top speed of over 20 knots and well job done then brief met.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Defence pros here must have a number! How many do they believe we will get then ?
Could be anywhere between 72 paper mache subs and 3 solid gold ones depending on who is making the decision and who's advice they choose to listen to.

Realistically we need a rock solid requirement of how many subs, of what type, are actually needed in the water on deployment to do what the government wants / needs done and from there work out how many hulls are needed to REALISTICALLY sustain that number. This in turn will need strategic direction and discipline. Mmmm......:confused:
 

Oberon

Member
In today's Australian newspaper, Stephen Looseley, from ASPI said six boats with an option of 3 more.

Six, as mentioned earlier in this thread, would only guarantee one boat being available at any one time, which is not a desirable situation. Nine boats would hopefully result in a possible three subs being available at any one time, which I think would be a minimum.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Australia in talks to buy Japanese submarines to upgrade fleet | News.com.au

Oh joy what is the first thing the government does of hearing that ASC has turned things around and proven themselves capable of delivering, they threaten to buy MOTS subs from Japan if ASC doesn't turn things around and prove themselves.

The jury is in, it is quite clear that the Australian government has no interest in maintaining any traditional manufacturing, heavy engineering, or ship building in country, let alone any high tech defence capability. Within a decade you will have to be a farmer, a miner or in financial services to earn a decent income, with everyone else having to work in service industries or be unemployed.

I have no issue with sharing technology and incorporating the best available systems into a suitable new or evolved design for the RAN. What I am against is buying something off the shelf i.e. will be outdated by the time the RAN examples enter service and then relying on them to do a job they were not designed to do for the next 30 years.

It is far better, I believe, to do what Japan, and the US for that mater, have done and build submarines continuously at a sustainable rate. Learn from the boats in service to build better boats to replace them. One new submarine every two years, a new evolution / batch / flight every six eight or ten years continually remaining ahead of the curve.

Instead of building or buying one too small batch in as short as period as possible and then spending the next decade bitching that they are not good enough we should aim to continually build and continually improve what we build, just like all the nations we see as being better at building things than us do.

Don't give up, and buy stuff off them, emulate them instead. Its not what they make its how they do it and how they get there.

The Soryu class are better (in some ways but not others) than the Collins because they are an evolution of an evolution of a design that was a contemporary of the Collins. Had the Collins been subject to a continuous slow rate build with three major design evolutions over a 25 year period our current production submarines would be superior to the Soryu. This is because the first major improvement to the next generation would have been improved propulsion and possibly AIP and hull for plus an interim improved combat system. The next would have been the all new combat system and torpedos plus further improvements to the batteries and propulsion etc.

The problem with Australia is our politicians lack vision and commitment and would rather destroy a strategic capability than risk the other side getting credit for a job well done. Its not just defence we see this vandalism its every where, it doesn't matter how important, necessary or valuable something is, if it is seen to have to possibility of making the other side look good it will be attacked and disrupted in anyway possible. We waste so much time and money in this country because of partisan politics and the inability of the major parties to put the nation and the people ahead of their political point scoring. Our elections aren't about who will lead and build the country they are about what we are prepared to sacrifice in exchange for what we hope to keep.

I feel more and more the next election will be about whether Australia wants to ever be able to build or make, or build anything significant in this country again.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And then in ten to fifteen years time we will spend trillions to rebuild it for the third time in fifty years and the fifth or with time in one hundred years.

Shipbuilding is a strategic necessity, that's why we spend so much time and effort rebuilding and growing it. Then every couple of decades some vandals come along and stuff it for a generation.

It would be cheaper, not to mention better value for money and result in greater capability for the ADF, if we just sustained and supported the industry we have rather than starting from scratch every decade or so.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
As you say, the Japanese keep their sub building program in operation by replacing the entire fleet, one boat at a time on a programmed schedule. No gaps, no pauses..

Wish we'd done the same with the Astute program instead of running the Trafalgars into the deck ..
 

the road runner

Active Member
If i was a betting man , i would think Australia with all the talk of buying Japanese boats is to scare ASC into realising that the Sub program will not just be handed to them.I was troubled to hear that HMAS Waller had a fire break out in her after she had been in refit early this year.

The Government has always stated they will build the Sub's in Australia.
I am just curious if Australian subs have technology the Japanese would want(combat system and torpedoes)?
Would it not be better if we joint developed a Sub with Japan,split the development costs and build a future boat that both country's could use?

Seems like we may be heading down the joint development path with Japan

http://www.janes.com/article/36476/...to-joint-research-on-submarines-hydrodynamics

Gf are you biting your tongue here ?
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Would it not be better if we joint developed a Sub with Japan,split the development costs and build a future boat that both country's could use?
I think that's where most would like to see the relationship develop to. Linking designing, building and operating as a shared thing. Building doesn't mean 100% built in each country, it could be more of a two nation build (at least for the Australian subs).

The ramifications and benefits of a successful joint program are huge and extend far beyond just subs. I hope Abbott sees that. There is so much more than just being a customer. It is a big step what Japan is considering, would be great with the FTA to christen it with a ~joint funded oh guessing but say $60 billion project.

You could then put together a little list of possible future defense projects that might involve us collaborating together.

Plus we already have 6 hulls that will need new stuff. Working with the Japanese to develop solutions to existing Collins would be a great forerunner for a new generation.

I would imagine the Americans would be very supportive of this kind of collaboration, as we would also make use of some of their systems and expertise.

Would be interested on what GF thoughts are.. but he might be pretty busy at the moment.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And then in ten to fifteen years time we will spend trillions to rebuild it for the third time in fifty years and the fifth or with time in one hundred years.

Shipbuilding is a strategic necessity, that's why we spend so much time and effort rebuilding and growing it. Then every couple of decades some vandals come along and stuff it for a generation.

It would be cheaper, not to mention better value for money and result in greater capability for the ADF, if we just sustained and supported the industry we have rather than starting from scratch every decade or so.
I'm a little more sanguine than you V, I don't think its time to put a gun to your head just yet.
There's too much invested in the programme to go ahead and just trash it. The political reality of causing more manufacturing losses on top of the recent deluge will be a major complication and Abbott is too pragmatic to allow that.
I do agree with others on joint development over decades rather than years. This amortizes the budgetary impact to a sustainable annual level.
 

protoplasm

Active Member
I'm a little more sanguine than you V, I don't think its time to put a gun to your head just yet.
There's too much invested in the programme to go ahead and just trash it. The political reality of causing more manufacturing losses on top of the recent deluge will be a major complication and Abbott is too pragmatic to allow that.
I do agree with others on joint development over decades rather than years. This amortizes the budgetary impact to a sustainable annual level.
Simple setup where 4 subs are produced each decade, with a rolling design process that produces subs in "flights" of 4. Sustainable, with a low budget impact in any one year. Reduces the need for as many mega-refits, and reduces obsolence issues as each new flight of four will be an evolution of the past design.
 

King Wally

Active Member
Simple setup where 4 subs are produced each decade, with a rolling design process that produces subs in "flights" of 4. Sustainable, with a low budget impact in any one year. Reduces the need for as many mega-refits, and reduces obsolence issues as each new flight of four will be an evolution of the past design.
I've heard a couple people paint pictures like this and every time I hear it I have to agree. Let's hope someone with good influence in Canberra is having this conversation as well.

Also lets hope the two major parties sit down one day and agree on a bi-partisan plan and then just stop using it as a political football to kick around each election cycle. This kind of thing needs long term vision, and a plan you can stick to for several decades.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
On another forum which I lurk their is a chap from the US who is ex USN and it appears he has experience in the engineering side of things having servers on board various USN ships from CVN to commanding his own Arleigh Burke,

Well anyway on one of his shore posting it was something to do with the Virginia Class submarine now being an engineer he was very interested how they were built and so fourth, any way he came to the conclusion it was a very sound a practical idea for the RAN to build a non-nuclear submarine of the class. Wonder if we can get a design team organised between Aus/US/Jap to build a conventional Viriginia class
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Virginia class is about twice the size of Collins, displaces about 8000 tons submerged, Collins about 3500. Virgina has a compliment of 158, Collins crewed by 58, when we can crew them......Soryu class is around 4100 tons and has a compliment of 65.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would happily forgo local construction for a half a dozen Virginias so long as we set up to provide local sustainment. At the same time though every single surface ship should be constructed locally to a schedule that ensures a sustainable and stable local industry with spare capacity to fill urgent requirements and exports.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Virginia class is about twice the size of Collins, displaces about 8000 tons submerged, Collins about 3500. Virgina has a compliment of 158, Collins crewed by 58, when we can crew them......Soryu class is around 4100 tons and has a compliment of 65.
Those numbers might come down if they were dist/elec not sure how they are set up for fuel on the back up gen sets

The space set aside for the reactor could be used for more store or deleted I don't know just thinking out load
 
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