Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
europe/a-british-research-ship-could-be-named-boaty-mcboatface/news-story/41e4fe1ca8c7aa1d4b54504caa2bfcf link

Why we should never let the public name our new ships.;)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
europe/a-british-research-ship-could-be-named-boaty-mcboatface/news-story/41e4fe1ca8c7aa1d4b54504caa2bfcf link

Why we should never let the public name our new ships.;)
Hmm, it would be interesting. HMAS Old Dark Blue, HMAS Maroons, HMAS XXXX, etc., etc. Boat McBoat - you gotta appreciate the pommy sense of humour :D
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Now that a double d election is a real possibility I wonder if the govt. bring forward announcements on OPVs and subs before the caretaker period where nothing can be done. These announcements would be handy for campaigning in SA and Vic.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Now that a double d election is a real possibility I wonder if the govt. bring forward announcements on OPVs and subs before the caretaker period where nothing can be done. These announcements would be handy for campaigning in SA and Vic.
Understand your point, but regardless of the upcoming election being an early 'DD' election or a 'full term' normal election at a slightly later date, I can't see the current Government loosing either way.

Sure it may, or may not, gain control of the Senate (upper house), but as history has shown, it is the executive Government in the Lower House that makes 'Defence of the Nation' decisions, regardless of the make up of the Parliament.

I don't know that 'defence' as such is a major election issue in the eyes of the average voting punter, except in the broader 'border security' related issue.

In reality I don't think the average voting punter has any idea about how many Frigates, OPV's or Submarines are in RAN service, or are going to be in service, or care how or where they are built, it's generally the 'day to day' issues of life that they are far more interested in.

But as you point out, for certain 'local' politicians in parts of SA and Vic, it will be a major part of the local issues (mostly around employment and nothing else), but in reality how many seats are we talking about here? Enough for a change of Government to occur? I don't know, but I don't think so.

Anyway, I'm sure that both major parties will be pushing the 'build in Australia for the sake of jobs' in those electorates.

But still, I think the words 'national security' will be seen by the punters in an overall sense, not necessarily what is build where (except in specific electorates).
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
whats more important is the fact that new generation tech + lithium is a huge bonus for onboard sensor and combat systems.
I only see it becoming more and more important. Akin to the ball bearing factories in the 1930's and 40's. It will be the technology that underpins many civilian and military machinery. It will be in everything. I see it becoming one of those strategic technologies.

Certainly a plant here would make a lot of sense. We are one of the worlds largest produces of raw lithium, producing 7 times as much as China does. We also produce a lot of other metals and materials that are used in lithium cell production. I don't really see a reason why it wouldn't be viable.

Shame Korea didn't offer a similar type of package, these are the type of technologies partnering can occur.

But then again, according to France they explode, so maybe we should put them on a few Exocet missiles, could make them more effective.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
But as you point out, for certain 'local' politicians in parts of SA and Vic, it will be a major part of the local issues (mostly around employment and nothing else), but in reality how many seats are we talking about here? Enough for a change of Government to occur? I don't know, but I don't think so.).
Employment will be a major focus and the importance of projects announced is that it allows campaigns to focus on job creation in the rust belt of Vic and SA.
Lower house seats will not be that much effected as the welded on support for Labor and the Greens in inner Melbourne won't change. SA is a different propositionA particularly in at risk seats such as Chris Pynes. More important is the Senate where the coalition will hope to pick up 5 Senators in Vic and 4 in SA. If they do that they have a possibility of picking up 37 or even 38 Senators.

They need a very positive employment message in these two states and defence industry is it.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Now that a double d election is a real possibility I wonder if the govt. bring forward announcements on OPVs and subs before the caretaker period where nothing can be done. These announcements would be handy for campaigning in SA and Vic.

they've got until 2nd July to announce things, after that everything goes into a holding pattern
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Simple numbers really, With a surface asset your adversary need only deploy one asset to shadow it, two to give it a challenge and three to over whelm it where as with a submarine your adversary will have to deploy half a dozen or more assets just to try and locate it.

In regards to submarine cost's well that should all be taken with a grain of salt as there is I'd imagine a lot of worst case scenario costings mixed in with far too much unfounded media speculation (dramatization to sell papers). Historically and this applies to the Collins class too we have been able to bring down each successive ship price with long production runs, If reports are to be believed from the AWD alliance even a 3 ship run has almost seen costs halve (Though the first one probably only cost that much due to management stuff ups) between the first and last ship.

@Todjaeger, I'm not so sure your speculated 8 in commission would occur or even be practical, While batches of 3 - 4 are likely not all of them will be laid down at once but rather one every two or so years. We can only slow the build of a submarine so much so unless we plan to retire our submarines when they are 6 - 8 years old before doing a mass decommissioning and mass commissioning such a speculation isn't possible.

Ideally I'd like them to be commissioned every 18 months with a service life of 18 years, though keep some around longer and actually get the badly needed training submarine!.
A few issues, though GF has already pointed some of them out.

In order for an adversary to attempt to 'shadow' a RAN sub, they would need to either start while the sub was in port, or catch it at some point where it was surfaced or at least snorting. If the RAN sub is already deployed or in transit, without using ASW assets the adversary would not even have a chance of knowing the RAN sub was present, unless/until the sub launched an attack or did something else to trigger it's potential detection. This is how and why a sub is such a threat, and has such a significant impact on adversary force structure and operations.

Let us throw some numbers out there (numbers are made up to illustrate the point, accuracy is not likely or important) to give a better idea.

Suppose Nation A has become an adversary of Australia, and currently has a task force engaging in amphibious operations within the region that are in opposition to Australian interests. Nation A also has a major SLOC which passes through the region, as well as four ports/naval bases of strategic importance. That leaves six potential areas where a RAN sub could find targets, never mind ISR opportunities. Nation A's ASW forces are sufficient so that, when concentrated, one area could be sanitized and the RAN sub would not be able to operate without being destroyed. Nation A could spread out it's ASW more thinly, to cover four areas of significance, but would only be 25% likely to be able to detect and persecute a RAN sub, all six potential areas could also be covered, but with success dropping down to only perhaps 15%.

This sort of situation would then make Nation A's force planners try and figure out what the target of the RAN sub would be, to provide the best chance of protecting the various potential targets. Should Nation A cover everything for a slight chance at success, or concentrate at certain areas to increase the potential for success if one of the areas of concentration happens to be the designated target and accepting that if the sub's target is not one of the areas of concentration the sub will get succeed unchallenged. This sort of difficult decision becomes even more difficult and complicated if the RAN is able to get a second or third sub out to sea.

As for the build cycle, your numbers seem to be a bit off. Assuming a two year build cycle, i.e. two years between first cutting steel and the RAN accepting into service, then when Sub #9 or Block 3 #1 is accepted into service, Sub #1 or Block 1 #1 would have already been in RAN service of ~18 years. IIRC major units typically need some sort of SLEP or MLU around the 15 - 20 year mark to stay relevant over the course of 25 - 30 year service life. What has been mentioned previously, and was also mentioned by the CN during the FADT, is that it might be more economical for the RAN to start retiring & replacing some of the major fleet units at the time a SLEP or MLU would be needed to remain useful in service. Given the amount of time such a major upgrade programme can take, as well as the costs and risks associated with doing so, a continuous build programme incorporating incremental/block improvements could be both lower costing and more reliable. Even with that, ~18 years service would still have been gotten from the first of class which is not a bad run.

What could also be interesting is that as the early block subs are being withdrawn from service, they could be put into Reserve just in case, and/or used for alongside training.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
A few issues, though GF has already pointed some of them out.

In order for an adversary to attempt to 'shadow' a RAN sub, they would need to either start while the sub was in port, or catch it at some point where it was surfaced or at least snorting. If the RAN sub is already deployed or in transit, without using ASW assets the adversary would not even have a chance of knowing the RAN sub was present, unless/until the sub launched an attack or did something else to trigger it's potential detection. This is how and why a sub is such a threat, and has such a significant impact on adversary force structure and operations.

Let us throw some numbers out there (numbers are made up to illustrate the point, accuracy is not likely or important) to give a better idea.

Suppose Nation A has become an adversary of Australia, and currently has a task force engaging in amphibious operations within the region that are in opposition to Australian interests. Nation A also has a major SLOC which passes through the region, as well as four ports/naval bases of strategic importance. That leaves six potential areas where a RAN sub could find targets, never mind ISR opportunities. Nation A's ASW forces are sufficient so that, when concentrated, one area could be sanitized and the RAN sub would not be able to operate without being destroyed. Nation A could spread out it's ASW more thinly, to cover four areas of significance, but would only be 25% likely to be able to detect and persecute a RAN sub, all six potential areas could also be covered, but with success dropping down to only perhaps 15%.

This sort of situation would then make Nation A's force planners try and figure out what the target of the RAN sub would be, to provide the best chance of protecting the various potential targets. Should Nation A cover everything for a slight chance at success, or concentrate at certain areas to increase the potential for success if one of the areas of concentration happens to be the designated target and accepting that if the sub's target is not one of the areas of concentration the sub will get succeed unchallenged. This sort of difficult decision becomes even more difficult and complicated if the RAN is able to get a second or third sub out to sea.

As for the build cycle, your numbers seem to be a bit off. Assuming a two year build cycle, i.e. two years between first cutting steel and the RAN accepting into service, then when Sub #9 or Block 3 #1 is accepted into service, Sub #1 or Block 1 #1 would have already been in RAN service of ~18 years. IIRC major units typically need some sort of SLEP or MLU around the 15 - 20 year mark to stay relevant over the course of 25 - 30 year service life. What has been mentioned previously, and was also mentioned by the CN during the FADT, is that it might be more economical for the RAN to start retiring & replacing some of the major fleet units at the time a SLEP or MLU would be needed to remain useful in service. Given the amount of time such a major upgrade programme can take, as well as the costs and risks associated with doing so, a continuous build programme incorporating incremental/block improvements could be both lower costing and more reliable. Even with that, ~18 years service would still have been gotten from the first of class which is not a bad run.

What could also be interesting is that as the early block subs are being withdrawn from service, they could be put into Reserve just in case, and/or used for alongside training.
I think there has been some misunderstanding on my part from your first post so my apologies, It is the downside of discussing topics over the internet.

Cutting through the miscommunication I believe we can all agree that submarines give us more options and force the opposition to divest more resources to counter them or spread said resources so thin they are a negligible threat then surface vessels.

I believe we can all agree that an 18 year life cycle for active submarines would be ideal as the cost's work out the exact same, it allows us to acquire the latest tech sooner in more useful numbers and the greater production over a shorter time period will help to stabilize costs at a globally competitive price.

And we both agree that as the submarines are withdrawn from service they should be used for reserve/training vessels, I'd say at least one on each coast, Possibly another at ASC to be used as a test bed for new tech?

Regards, vonnoobie.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Another site always guaranteed to sprout out unfounded bias.. Crikey!

Should Australia switch to nuclear submarines? | Crikey

Should Australia procure nuclear submarines?

JON STANFORD | MAR 21, 2016 12:48PM

The Future Submarine program asks a lot of critical questions about the future of Australia’s defence capabilities, writes director of Insight Economics Jon Stanford.

The most important acquisition included in the government’s defence white paper, released in February, is the decision to procure 12 new submarines for the Royal Australian Navy. With an acquisition cost of at least $50 billion (and with a much higher through-life sustainment cost), this is by far the largest defence program in Australia’s history.

Australia has made some extremely costly errors in defence procurement in the last few decades — particularly naval acquisitions. The Hawke government’s decision to specify a unique requirement for the Collins class submarines and to build them locally has caused very considerable problems related to cost and availability. It is more than 10 years since the Howard government awarded the air warfare destroyer project to ASC (formerly the Australian Submarine Corporation), and still not one ship has been delivered, with the cost per vessel in excess of $3 billion and still climbing. As Hugh White has pointed out, if Australia had ordered three Arleigh Burke destroyers from the US at that time, they would have cost around $1 billion each for more capable ships and been delivered long ago.

In this context, the proposed acquisition of the future submarine (FSM) raises a number of complex issues and involves substantial risks. Because of the extremely high cost of the project, these issues should be thoroughly evaluated before any binding commitment is made. The fundamental issue concerns the high risks involved both in the decision to develop a unique Australian submarine and in the possible government disposition to build it locally. We also need to remember that these issues involve not just financial risks but also the risk of sending service personnel into harm’s way using inadequate equipment.

In order to compensate for its numerical inferiority, a traditional objective for the Australian Defence Force has been to maintain a level of technological superiority in its equipment relative to potential adversaries. The white paper states that “maintaining Australia’s technological edge and capability superiority over potential adversaries is an essential element of our strategic planning”. In relation to the FSM:

“[T]he Government has determined that regionally superior submarines … are required to provide Australia with an effective deterrent … The key capabilities of the future submarine 
will include: anti-submarine warfare; anti-surface warfare; intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; and support to special operations.”

In the light of previous statements, and given the requirement for a very long range, it seems clear that operations in the South China Sea would lie at the heart of the FSM’s mission. Activities in those congested waters would include reconnaissance, intelligence gathering and, perhaps, special operations, moving to anti-shipping and anti-submarine interdiction should hostilities break out. The question then is: will the FSM embody the advanced technologies required to discharge this mission?

The statement in the white paper that the FSM will be regionally superior in terms of its technology is highly contestable. In general terms, a conventional submarine (SSK), however advanced its design, will be inferior to a nuclear submarine (SSN), particularly in prosecuting a force-projection role in distant, contested waters.

First of all, a nuclear boat is a true submarine; it will not need to refuel during its service life and its underwater range is limited only by the endurance of its crew. A SSK needs to come to periscope depth from time to time to run its diesels (“snorting”) and recharge its batteries; this “indiscretion” makes it much more vulnerable to detection. For a conventional submarine like the Collins — without air-independent propulsion (AIP) — the indiscretion rate ranges typically from around 7-10% on patrol at four knots, and 20-30% in transit at about eight knots.

Secondly, an SSN has a high underwater speed (over 35 knots) and can withdraw from any threat very quickly. An SSK can only generate a burst speed of about 20 knots submerged for a short period of time (less than one hour) and then, using AIP if fitted, its speed underwater is limited to around three to five knots.

Thirdly, the size and power of an SSN means it can carry much more kit (such as torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, cruise missiles and mines) than an SSK.

A very important attribute of an SSN is the ability to generate sufficient electrical power so as to run today’s advanced electronic sensors and systems for as long as is required. Already the power-hungry sensors in the Collins class, including the vital combat system (of US origin and originally designed for nuclear boats), make a heavy demand on the available power, requiring the submarine to undertake more frequent snorting to recharge the batteries, thereby raising the indiscretion rate. This will become increasingly important as submarines are required to carry more and more sophisticated electronic equipment.

On the other hand, although contemporary SSNs are extremely quiet compared with legacy designs, the one advantage still possessed by an SSK is its ability to run very quietly underwater. Once detected, however, every submarine skipper would exchange this advantage for the very high speed capability of an SSN. As a US expert notes, “AIP does not give … the sort of high-speed power which saves a submarine once it is being pursued. Only nuclear power can give that…”

In terms of the White Paper’s goal of regional technological superiority, it is true that potential adversaries in the Asia Pacific (with the important exception of Russia) do not currently deploy many nuclear submarines and the ones that are operational are not particularly effective. It may well be that the new submarine, if it were in commission now, for a few years could boast technological superiority in the South China Sea, where it is clearly designed to spend most of its time. While China already has nuclear submarines, they are crude by contemporary western standards, noisy and not considered a significant operational threat. On the other hand, if it realised its potential, Australia’s new submarine would be very quiet and its AIP system (or alternatively substantial banks of lithium-ion batteries) would allow it to patrol submerged, albeit at a slow speed, for around a month.

But the problem is that the FSM is not in the water now. The first boat will not be available for at least 15 years. This makes it highly unlikely that it would be technologically superior even when it is introduced, let alone in 2050, when the final FSM will be commissioned.
Misrepresenting submarine acquisition costs as being $50+ billion, Not the up to $50 billion actually mentioned in the DWP.

Over simplified the Collins class issue (with a healthy dose of BS)

Misrepresented figures related to the AWD.

His belief that he knows better then the people that will be serving on them! :rolleyes:

That nuclear submarines apparently are the only true submarines. For some reason conventional submarines aren't real, Must be true since so many 'US submariners' i meet on the net tell me that they put systems on board so the conventional boat can track and sink them :roll2

Or how speed will save you because 35 knots can get you out of the range of danger, At the speed it is a wonder how a ship launched torpedo traveling at 42+ knots could catch it :lol2

Or the expert used t o justify his views, Said expert being an article that at the bottom clearly states
* All opinions expressed in this article are the author's own, and do not necessarily reflect those of the U.S. Navy or of any other organization with which he has been associated.
...

Only solution after reading that BS :idea2 Beer!
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
And we both agree that as the submarines are withdrawn from service they should be used for reserve/training vessels, I'd say at least one on each coast, Possibly another at ASC to be used as a test bed for new tech?
Not quite sure about having Reserve/training subs spread across both coasts. Whatever training establishment is used by the RAN's submarine service should definitely have one, since that should be used for alongside training and perhaps even training cruises. Not being familiar with the configuration for RAN sub training, I do not know what would be a good arrangement. For the subs held in Reserve, I would not have those spread out too much, since they would likely just be moored someone they could be kept secure while in what is essentially a floating mothballed state.

Had not given thought to handing one over to ASC or another agency as technology demonstrator or test bed. That is a potentially quite interesting notion. Also if things were to go 'pear-shaped' then having some Reserve subs which have benefitted from being a tech demonstrator might be able to be brought back into service in an upgraded form faster if needed. At that point, crewing RAN subs could become the limiting factor. And depending on the point in the build cycle, potential RAN adversaries might stop and consider the possibilities in dealing with ~8 Future subs and 6 Collins-class subs brought back into service...

That could be enough boats for even a Great Power to pause and re-think the value in engaging with Australia.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
What could also be interesting is that as the early block subs are being withdrawn from service, they could be put into Reserve just in case, and/or used for alongside training.
It's also interesting to see how Japan has migrated from one class of new subs to the next.

Up until the recent announcement of increasing their submarine fleet from 16 to 22, they had followed a very orderly process of one new boat in at the top in 'March of each year' and the oldest of the previous class retiring (or becoming a 'training' boat).

Just prior to the commissioning of Soryu No 7 earlier this month they had 6 Soryu in commission, 10 (of 11) of the previous Oyashio class in commission, and the very 1st Oyashio had been converted to a 'training' submarine in March 2015 (and I've seen reports that one of the previous to Oyashio, the Harushio class was still around as a 'training' boat too.

In theory they should now have 17 boats in commission, 7 Soryu and 10 Oyashio (because they are also spending money on 'extending' the life of the Oyashio class to get to 22), on top of that there should still be one (1) Oyashio as a training boat.

Next year (remembering they commission a new boat in March of every year and are extending the service lives of the previous class), the fleet of active boats should increase to 18, the year after 19, and so on until they reach their goal of 22.

Now of course the RAN is never going to get to 22 boats in commission, or commission a new boat every 12 months, but following a 'similar' process that the Japanese are doing, I can see a situation that as new boats come in at the top, the oldest (or most worn) of the earlier boats (or even the best of the remaining Collins class), could still have a role as either an 'active' training boat or at the very least an alongside training boat.

And of course there is no reason that an 'active' training boat couldn't be made 'operational' for a surge capability if and when required to.

Anyway, regardless of that, having 'training' boats available, active or alongside, should also mean that more active boats are available for front line duties.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The idea of a training boat is not new for the RAN although training in this instance was for ASW training.
K9 was used between June 42 to March 44 operating out of Sydney but was unsuitable and unreliable.
For those non Australians, K9 was a Dutch submarine on duty in the Dutch East Indies and retreated to Perth when the Japanese invaded. She was gifted to the RAN by the Dutch govt. in exile.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
they've got until 2nd July to announce things, after that everything goes into a holding pattern
Holey moley, thats not a lot of time. Perhaps this is why the French and the Germans (and Japanese) have gone onto the offensive regarding subs. An imminent announcement of the preferred? But would it be subs they would announce? Just subs?

Its one very interesting way to go into an election. It would consolidate Malcolm's grip on power as all the SA and VIC players would be safe for another couple of years (which was Tonys downfall) so all the knives would disappear at least for a while.

To be honest the next 3 years will be very interesting. Australia has to deliver a stable competent government. Given the white paper, there will be a large series of defence announcements in the next 3 year term.

Very interesting times ahead.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Holey moley, thats not a lot of time. Perhaps this is why the French and the Germans (and Japanese) have gone onto the offensive regarding subs. An imminent announcement of the preferred? But would it be subs they would announce? Just subs?

Its one very interesting way to go into an election. It would consolidate Malcolm's grip on power as all the SA and VIC players would be safe for another couple of years (which was Tonys downfall) so all the knives would disappear at least for a while.

To be honest the next 3 years will be very interesting. Australia has to deliver a stable competent government. Given the white paper, there will be a large series of defence announcements in the next 3 year term.

Very interesting times ahead.
actually it will be less than this. Once the pollies are pulled back to vote on the ABCC they can trigger if it fails to pass - July 2 is last day to pull the trigger, but it can go off before then
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
actually it will be less than this. Once the pollies are pulled back to vote on the ABCC they can trigger if it fails to pass - July 2 is last day to pull the trigger, but it can go off before then
Exactly, could be as early as April 18th if the Senate refuses to reconsider the legislation, but not likely. Once the election is called and they go into caretaker mode they can't spend new money although approved processes in place can continue
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Exactly, could be as early as April 18th if the Senate refuses to reconsider the legislation, but not likely. Once the election is called and they go into caretaker mode they can't spend new money although approved processes in place can continue
I suspect that there will be a push to try and get some things passed before the trigger... otherwise things will slip unless they are operational reqs or have some tactical immediacy....
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Exactly, could be as early as April 18th if the Senate refuses to reconsider the legislation, but not likely. Once the election is called and they go into caretaker mode they can't spend new money although approved processes in place can continue
With the DWP just recently being released, I really can't see that any decisions regarding either the Future Frigate or OPV's being made before the Government goes into caretaker mode (and especially not the Collins replacements either).

About the only naval shipbuilding program that could see an announcement is the Pacific Patrol Boat Replacement program, that must be getting close.

As I understand it, there are two bidders left, a consortium based in Cairns and Austal in the West.

Other than that, I think all the Government will be able to do is 're announce or re affirm' various future commitments made in the DWP.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
With the DWP just recently being released, I really can't see that any decisions regarding either the Future Frigate or OPV's being made before the Government goes into caretaker mode (and especially not the Collins replacements either).

About the only naval shipbuilding program that could see an announcement is the Pacific Patrol Boat Replacement program, that must be getting close.

As I understand it, there are two bidders left, a consortium based in Cairns and Austal in the West.

Other than that, I think all the Government will be able to do is 're announce or re affirm' various future commitments made in the DWP.
This is quite likely.
However, there will probably be some kind of announcement to attempt to silence the continued bleating from South Australia, which seems to think that it alone has a divine right (of sorts) to build naval ships. The government won't want to have a campaign of continual whinging from this state, so it will need some bedding down I think.
MB
 

hairyman

Active Member
Earlier postings about an 18 year cycle for the submarine build, all very well if we are to have a force of 8 or 9 boats, but are we likely to get to twelve after 18 years? I think not. Maybe it would be doable if we purchased 3 or 4 nukes in addition.
 
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