Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just to add to the OPV discussion.
While we all have our own thoughts as to what the sensor / weapon fit out of the OPV should be.
Maybe some consideration could also be given to providing extra passenger accomodation over and above that which is necesary for ships crew and aviation support staff.
New Zealands Protector class OPV have some 30 extra bunks which I'm sure would be of benefit on many tasks
.Accommodation for a platoon sized group of around 40 PAX at ships standards with decent sized mission bay for boats and cargo I'm sure would be of great benefit to many taskings. Could be very useful for smaller HADR operations at one end to small force insertion tasks at the other. Maybe there is scope for small commando sized operations within the limits of the ships weapons systems or under the protective umbella of a larger task force.

What ever the tasking,extra accomodation and mission bay will be a big step up from the smaller patrol boat era.
We may find the new OPV undertaking some of the lighter logistical work of the retired LCH.
Yes, they are different types of vessels. However we are building a new and different navy with new fleet assets. It will be interesting to see as to how both the fleet, and how we go about business evolves.

Just a thought
S
Most of the OPV designs have extra accommodation eg The Damen Sea axe 1800 has 36 extra, the Navantia Avante 1800 has accommodation for 82 without specifying what is core crew (36-40)?
I believe this is pretty universal as it allows for modular manning depending on task. It doesn't specify how the ships flight are treated but I assume that when they are embarked the spare bunks would reduce.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
If (and I and not saying it is the case) they are still looking at 20 hulls in the long run then 8 vessels such as the Advante or other 'light frigate/corvette' designs may be and option for the latter and the first 12 can be just a very capable OPV.

It's all down the the intended operations of the vessel and the Damen product is certainly more than capable of anti drug, anti piracy and policing functions.
It seems to be potentially where the WP is heading. Perhaps two classes. 1 could be a pure OPV (as announced) and 1 more of a light combatant (future). The OPV's could then replace the mine hunters, survey ships as well as light policing, patrolling etc. The remaining numbers being made up of a OCV.

The Huons and the survey ships aren't desperate for replacement, and are much bigger than the Armidales. The Huons already have a 30mm gun and nearly twice the displacement, and the survey ships already have some aviation capability and are over 2000t already (ignoring the Paluma's).

I wonder if the Spanish Armada might be interested in having a BAM operate out of Australian waters for a while. The WP does mention..

The Armidale Class will be supplemented by additional patrol craft as required until they are replaced by the offshore patrol vessels, to ensure there is no gap in Navy’s border protection capability.
 

Alf662

New Member
It seems to be potentially where the WP is heading. Perhaps two classes. 1 could be a pure OPV (as announced) and 1 more of a light combatant (future). The OPV's could then replace the mine hunters, survey ships as well as light policing, patrolling etc. The remaining numbers being made up of a OCV.

The Huons and the survey ships aren't desperate for replacement, and are much bigger than the Armidales. The Huons already have a 30mm gun and nearly twice the displacement, and the survey ships already have some aviation capability and are over 2000t already (ignoring the Paluma's).

I wonder if the Spanish Armada might be interested in having a BAM operate out of Australian waters for a while. The WP does mention..
The recent purchase of "Ocean Protector" could also be the additional patrol craft. Nothing much has been said about it.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder if the Spanish Armada might be interested in having a BAM operate out of Australian waters for a while. The WP does mention..
Definition issue.

BAMS in the USN and RAAF context is about P8's paired with Global Hawks.

ie a manned and unmanned maritime surveillance combination

Nothing to do with ships
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On another note, anyone from Oz with a weak heart and/or constitution should avoid watching last sundays "Insiders".

Andrew Probin made absolutely idiotic statements - and cassidy wasn't smart enough or versed enough to pull him up on it.

They need more Cate MacGregors to pull these idiots up when they say stupid things and present it as fact. (as she so skillfully did with that "panda hugger" Bob Carr ) :)
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Definition issue.

BAMS in the USN and RAAF context is about P8's paired with Global Hawks.

ie a manned and unmanned maritime surveillance combination

Nothing to do with ships
Errr....Buque de Acción Marítima

Another name for the Navantia Avantes, a.k.a Meteoro class

oldsig
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Definition issue.

BAMS in the USN and RAAF context is about P8's paired with Global Hawks.

ie a manned and unmanned maritime surveillance combination

Nothing to do with ships

I think what StringrayOZ was referring to (and I'm sure he can correct me on this if I'm wrong), is the Spanish Meteoro Class OPV's.

The BAM (Buque de Acción Marítima) ships, not the US the Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) program

BAMs (that's BAMs, with a lower case 's' is a collective of the Spanish BAM ships), see link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buque_de_Acción_Marítima


And one more point, yes agree that BAMS, in the USN / RAAF context, is P8A's and the MQ-4C Triton but not the USAF Global Hawk.

Cheers,
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On another note, anyone from Oz with a weak heart and/or constitution should avoid watching last sundays "Insiders".

Andrew Probin made absolutely idiotic statements - and cassidy wasn't smart enough or versed enough to pull him up on it.

They need more Cate MacGregors to pull these idiots up when they say stupid things and present it as fact. (as she so skillfully did with that "panda hugger" Bob Carr ) :)
Sometimes I feel that, albeit just in special circumstances, the idea of pollies and journos having to attend a series of re-education sessions might be appealing :D :lol3
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think the Phalanx is an easier sell simply because we already have them and would meet the minimum requirements. I think its surface model is probably more suitable for a OPV than RAM. Really it doesn't matter, if space, weight and power is allocated, then SeaRAM or Phalanx (or nothing or some future system) could go in depending on what we have. I would imagine if we ever wanted to move these ships on (continuous build etc) then having the ability to mount something defensive like that I think would be a big plus.
Phalanx might be an easier sell, however IMO it is becoming a more limited CIWS weapon. Between the range and weight of shot of the 20 mm rounds, many of the potential AShM threats could not be effectively defeated by the Phalanx any more, which is part of the reason why the USN worked to have the Millenium Gun developed.

While I agree that there should be options to have a layered defence, at this point though, it does appear that the Phalanx would not be an option in many cases against aerial threats. There are just too many missiles which can come in too fast for a Phalanx to damage sufficiently to prevent impact, once the missile comes within range of the Phalanx. The -b mod does add an anti-surface/FAC role, but other weapons are already available to cover smallcraft (some of which can also do better at anti-air)

All this talk of ESSM's, multiple Millennium guns and ASM's for the OPV's is complete nonsense.

The realist in me tells me the most we can expect is a 57/76mm gun plus one or two 25mm's. At a stretch we might get a Phalanx/Searam.
You may well be correct. However, given the various requirement iterations for the patrol capability over the last 20+ years, there is the potential that some might need to be 'upgunned' and/or have the flexibility to be upgunned.

Much of the will be determined by both the planned, and actual conops for the OPV's. As has been observed with the ACPB's (and the FCPB's before them...) the RAN needs to conduct certain types of operations, in certain areas, and under certain conditions, and the vessels purchased to conduct these operations need to be up to the task. Using the ACPB's as an example, while they may have met what was specified in the contract (for the most part) in terms of capabilities, the actual circumstances which the ACPB's operated in were a bit different.

By increasing either the overall capability, or the potential capability (via fitted for but not with, and/or mission modules) of the OPV's, then the utility of the OPV can be increased beyond just the improved range and sea-keeping when compared with earlier patrol forces.

If the RAN were to deploy a vessel on anti-piracy patrols, armed to the level of the ACPB's, then depending on just who/where the pirates were, the RAN vessel might be facing peer or near-peer level forces in terms of hardware. The only time you have that sort of fight, is when you have no other choice.

One of the other, potentially important, considerations is that with the mission modules becoming more prevalent, more future RAN vessels might be set to use such modules. Under such circumstances, it would seem sensible to allow the OPV's and future frigates/destroyers to be able to trade off some of the minor weapons systems depending on where vessels are being deployed. The RAN already does that to a degree with the pool of Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS.

Using the Danish Stanflex system as an example, a number of the RoDN vessels which have four Stanflex module bays can be fitted with 48 ESSM, a respectable missile loadout for limited area air defence. That very same sort of vessel could also get re-tasked after a port visit, with ASW operations, with one or more of the module bays getting fitted with LWT launchers, and so on.

Some of the discussion has been about the fitout, capabilities, and integration issues with various weapon systems. Other parts of the discussion has been about potential concerns with the OPV, since some vessel selections are more limited, or are much more difficult to alter/increase the capability loadout after construction. The current RNZN OPV's being a prime example of such limited.

Please keep in mind (the active Kiwis on here should already know this) that I do not do this to have a go at the RNZN, but to illustrate how much forethought, or the lack of forethought (or possibly deliberate decisions based upon ideology...) can impact options. Like the ACPB's, the Kiwi OPV's are armed with a 25 mm as a main gun, with what appears to be compartment space immediately beneath the mounting. This immediately limits what the 25 mm gun could be upgunned to, or replaced with, since anything requiring deck penetration would require drydocking so the internals could be rearranged. It is also an open question on whether or not the space could be used for a different, non-penetrating gun, since some mountings require differently levels of reinforcement. Looking over the rest of the ship, there also is not really any place open to mount another 25 mm gun (meaning no 360 degree fire arc) or a CIWS. This means the RNZN OPV is sufficiently armed to damage and possibly sink civilian vessels after potentially extended periods of firing, as well as smallcraft which can be kept within the firing arc of the OPV's main gun. One of the other (IMO very big and/or deliberate) oversights is the hangar magazine, or rather, the lack of one. This basically means that while the OPV can have an embarked helicopter, it is essentially unarmed except for small arms which can be brought from other magazines within the ship. This very much limits just how useful an embarked helicopter can be, especially if patrolling in an area where an armed response would be advisable. Due to the lack of a magazine, the armed helicopter response it limited to perhaps a door-mounted MG, instead having options for a gun pod, AShM, Hellfire or other AGM, LWT, depth bombs, etc.

Again, it is some of this sort of forethought which can permit a greater range of responses in the future.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sometimes I feel that, albeit just in special circumstances, the idea of pollies and journos having to attend a series of re-education sessions might be appealing :D :lol3
Nah, just make them responsible for carrying out and living under the conditions of the policies they make or report on.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
On another note, anyone from Oz with a weak heart and/or constitution should avoid watching last sundays "Insiders".

Andrew Probin made absolutely idiotic statements - and cassidy wasn't smart enough or versed enough to pull him up on it.

They need more Cate MacGregors to pull these idiots up when they say stupid things and present it as fact. (as she so skillfully did with that "panda hugger" Bob Carr ) :)
Actually I did see it yesterday, and as usual what a load of crap it was!!!

The only reason that I watch 'Insiders' is to see how the 'left wing media' reports the events of the week, just like reading the articles on SMH too.

It's just a pity that (agree with them or not, and I'm not suggesting that you do) is that both Andrew Bolt and Piers Akerman aren't on Insiders anymore to at least give 'some' sort of balance to the far left side of the reporting, now the only one from the 'right' is Gerard Henderson.

ABC News? Got to love how my tax dollar is being spent (NOT!)


PS,

If I ever watch Q&A, please shoot me, you have my permission (obviously I've completely lost the plot if I watch Q&A!!)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think what StringrayOZ was referring to (and I'm sure he can correct me on this if I'm wrong), is the Spanish Meteoro Class OPV's.

The BAM (Buque de Acción Marítima) ships, not the US the Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) program

BAMs (that's BAMs, with a lower case 's' is a collective of the Spanish BAM ships), see link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buque_de_Acción_Marítima


And one more point, yes agree that BAMS, in the USN / RAAF context, is P8A's and the MQ-4C Triton but not the USAF Global Hawk.

Cheers,
I agree with you John, however the similarities of the nomenclatures are confusing and there are times when I've had to really consider what's being talked about. Hence may I suggest that if we are talking about the Navantia BAMs maybe we either stipulate that, or use the term BAMs OPV. That reduces any confusion.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
And one more point, yes agree that BAMS, in the USN / RAAF context, is P8A's and the MQ-4C Triton but not the USAF Global Hawk.

Cheers,

Nope, the original construct was about P8 and GHawk - it was an australian initiative. Triton didn't exist at that stage

I've seen the definition papers and was "unlucky" enough to have to share a seat with one of the evaluation team from Sydney to Hawai'i on the way to LA. Said Customs Officer was part of the external evaluation team and was a tad "molly the monk" and saying much more than he should have in an open environment.

In a Defence environment he would have been charged and lost his pension once back in Oz :)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I know I hark on about this but STAN modules are not in series production and there are a limited number in existence........ I think the owner want to keep them too.

This does not stop using other packages to have a modular system but it won't necessarily be 'STAN'.
I could be mistaken about others, but I would advocate for Australia buying the rights for licensed production of addional/new Stanflex modules and the relevant interfaces and systems integration. The Danes already seem to have done much of the difficult work, figuring out how to have different systems utilize the same kind of connections and interface. It should be a much easier task for new examples of existing module designs to be produced, and then a perhaps somewhat easier task for Australia to develop new modules based off Australian kit and service needs.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I agree with you John, however the similarities of the nomenclatures are confusing and there are times when I've had to really consider what's being talked about. Hence may I suggest that if we are talking about the Navantia BAMs maybe we either stipulate that, or use the term BAMs OPV. That reduces any confusion.
Hi Mate,

Agree.

That's BAMs (with a lower case s) and not BAMS (with an upper case S).


To go off on a tangent for a minute, I was originally in the printing industry (Hand and Machine Compositor by trade, a trade that doesn't exist anymore!), and do you know why a 'small' character is 'lower case' and a 'BIG' character is 'upper case'?

Simple!!

The small type was in the lower part of the type case and the BIG type was in the upper part of the case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case


"Old printers/compositors never die, they just fade away"
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Nope, the original construct was about P8 and GHawk - it was an australian initiative. Triton didn't exist at that stage

I've seen the definition papers and was "unlucky" enough to have to share a seat with one of the evaluation team from Sydney to Hawai'i on the way to LA. Said Customs Officer was part of the external evaluation team and was a tad "molly the monk" and saying much more than he should have in an open environment.

In a Defence environment he would have been charged and lost his pension once back in Oz :)
I wouldn't disagree with you for one minute with what you have said (and more importantly know for a fact), and yes obviously that was the original construct.

But I think it's fair to say that 'today' when referring to BAMS, we are talking about Poseidon and Triton (not Global Hawk).

Cheers,
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I wouldn't disagree with you for one minute with what you have said (and more importantly know for a fact), and yes obviously that was the original construct.

But I think it's fair to say that 'today' when referring to BAMS, we are talking about Poseidon and Triton (not Global Hawk).

Cheers,
Its actually got a bit more complicated

GH was and is about med to high altitude ISR and flying over objects (in the COP sense) of interest (supportive of the ELINT role)

Triton is about an even more focused ISR role and with maybe less dicking around between various altitudes (ie behaving more like a sea eagle than an albatross is probably the best bird analogy to use)

Mariner is about the opportunity to conduct extended and/or supportive strike. Flight profile for Mariner is completely different to GH and Triton and was one of the reasons why Customs weren't able to come to a decision and did the procurement assessment equivalent of trying to wee in the corner of the inside of a 44gallon drum.

There is a view that BAMs out of necessity now needs to consider all 3 platforms as a construct within the border prot, surveillance assist, ELINT, ASuW/ASW role

Simplistically the discussion tends to be around a two platform mother daughter, errant child relationship - but poke certain people too hard and they will argue that for BAMs to be effective and to take advantage of inherent platform strengths, it should be about a troika of assets supporting each other in the broader BAMs CONOPs.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Todjaeger; said:
Much of the will be determined by both the planned, and actual conops for the OPV's.

Again, it is some of this sort of forethought which can permit a greater range of responses in the future.
Your post was an excellent summation of some of those considerations the OPV acquisition team faces thanks Tod (excuse the one liner)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I could be mistaken about others, but I would advocate for Australia buying the rights for licensed production of addional/new Stanflex modules and the relevant interfaces and systems integration. The Danes already seem to have done much of the difficult work, figuring out how to have different systems utilize the same kind of connections and interface. It should be a much easier task for new examples of existing module designs to be produced, and then a perhaps somewhat easier task for Australia to develop new modules based off Australian kit and service needs.
I actually think that is a really good idea and with much respect to the Danes, I think that Australia could significantly increase the utilisation of the Stanflex system and take it to a wider "market".
 

Severely

New Member
It's interesting to note how the Damen 1800 fits into an OPV format and many of you are discussing the fitted for but not with requirement we may be looking at. If you peruse the Damen website and look under the corvette section i.e. and OCV type vessel you will see the SIGMA CORVETTE 8313.

Very interesting design but probably heavier on manpower and designed more for speed than endurance. If you do read further down though the engine configuration can be modified to accommodate customers needs.

It has most of everything discussed ie main gun up to 76 mm, secondary gun mounts for eg 25mm. Helipad and hangar. Option for SeaRAM and option for SSMs.

Just a thought.
 
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