Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
what a dill, any sensible lawyer could argue that he's become a vexatious litigant
Any sensible lawyer would simply take him on as a client, and continue milking him for money. Basically like a stupid tax.

It's like the people who used to protest about the noise at RAAF Point Cook, when there actually used to be a lot of flying there. It's the oldest airstrip in the country, it was there a long time before they were.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Any sensible lawyer would simply take him on as a client, and continue milking him for money. Basically like a stupid tax.

It's like the people who used to protest about the noise at RAAF Point Cook, when there actually used to be a lot of flying there. It's the oldest airstrip in the country, it was there a long time before they were.
true, but I was looking at the lawyer on the other side....

his lawyer would see him as a self licking icecream money generator :)
 

Oberon

Member
There's an annual rock festival in the town where I live (Reading). First held here in 1971, next to the Thames.

On the other side of the river are some expensive houses - expensive because of the location. A stupid git bought one, I think in the late 1980s, & started going to court to get the festival stopped on the grounds of noise & disturbance. He lost every time. Obvious reasons: he knew it was there when he bought the house. IIRC the courts started refusing to hear him, it having been settled & he being unable to think of any new arguments, so he started going to court for the right to bring a case. I think that was eventually barred.

Dickhead, eh? Spent a fortune on cases which any lawyer worth giving money to would have told him were doomed, & stuck with 'em for years. But a dickhead with money. Unfortunately, there are plenty of them.
Maybe he was a lawyer and had the time on his hands to pursue the matter.

Nevertheless I'm not sympathetic to the Potts Point mob.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
There's an annual rock festival in the town where I live (Reading). First held here in 1971, next to the Thames.

On the other side of the river are some expensive houses - expensive because of the location. A stupid git bought one, I think in the late 1980s, & started going to court to get the festival stopped on the grounds of noise & disturbance. He lost every time. Obvious reasons: he knew it was there when he bought the house. IIRC the courts started refusing to hear him, it having been settled & he being unable to think of any new arguments, so he started going to court for the right to bring a case. I think that was eventually barred.

Dickhead, eh? Spent a fortune on cases which any lawyer worth giving money to would have told him were doomed, & stuck with 'em for years. But a dickhead with money. Unfortunately, there are plenty of them.
Same kind of miserable old prick moved into the Melbourne CBD last year. He's got millions of dollars, sold off a beach house to buy an apartment in the middle of the city, then started campaigning to have all the local venues institute new "noise laws", or have extra sound proofing installed at the venue's expense, all this BS... when he bloody well knew the CBD gets loud on the weekends, stuff is open all night, etc... it's hard enough for bands to find gigs as it is when everything is being turned into pokies pubs and sit-down dinner places. Even the promoters who try to do right by the local bands barely turn around enough to stay in business.

Then in comes this old turkey with his millions to drop on property deals and expensive lawyer's letters to the city council, trying to get the entire CBD to shut up on the weekends? And this guy gave an interview to the newspaper like he actually expected average people to feel sorry for him!

F that bullsh!t. I hope the bass crumbles his walls and he's driven out of the city by a pack of rats. Same with these rich types who think the GOD DAMN NAVY doesn't have the right to park its ships exactly where it pleases.

Sorry for flipping out a bit but people like this are just wastes of space to me... forever entitled, yet forever moaning wastes of space...
 

Alf662

New Member
Another delay in the White Paper release

A recent report that the forth coming White Paper is going to be delayed again.

I would not mind if the White Papers had bipartisan support, but every time a new government comes in in it appears that it has to be rewritten because the other mob got it wrong.

If the current government looses the next election this White Paper will be still born, just like the last two White Papers - excuse my cynicism :confused:

Insiders urge Government to delay long awaited Defence White Paper - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A recent report that the forth coming White Paper is going to be delayed again.
that was always on the cards - new brooms - and quite frankly, thank god

I would not mind if the White Papers had bipartisan support, but every time a new government comes in in it appears that it has to be rewritten because the other mob got it wrong.
the prev white paper was rewritten and rewriiten to suit the PM - an inert DefMin as a passive contributor

If the current government looses the next election this White Paper will be still born, just like the last two White Papers - excuse my cynicism :confused:

Insiders urge Government to delay long awaited Defence White Paper - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
ADM Barrie (Retd) is spot on

the chances of this govt losing the next election diminished as soon as they changed the guard
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Any sensible lawyer would simply take him on as a client, and continue milking him for money. Basically like a stupid tax.

It's like the people who used to protest about the noise at RAAF Point Cook, when there actually used to be a lot of flying there. It's the oldest airstrip in the country, it was there a long time before they were.
Just reminds me that they're not allowed to go supersonic at Avalon, curse it all. Some of us don't care about noise, hearing damage, or broken windows. Just get that F-22/B-1/Singaporean insano F-16/F-111/SU-27 (once when I was young and lucky) as fast and as low as possible, and god will sort out the rest.

Also Malaysia bring your Flankers (if it's safe enough for Pitch Black it's safe enough for me) and Singapore bring your Sexy Strike Eagles, god damn it.

EDIT: Well, off topic as possible. Pardon me. This stuff kills me.
 
McPhedran has discovered the Japanese.

Japan wants to build our future submarines

IMO this is a very good move. Japanese are being clearer to the public what they are willing to provide.
Interesting piece in the FT today on a Cambridge University breakthrough with a laboratory-based demonstrator version of a Lithium-Air battery.

Cambridge chemists make super-battery breakthrough - FT

Science Journal blurb

Very early days, but the obvious beneficial applications in the diesel submarine space would be huge, both in energy efficiency and the power weight/ size requirements.

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2012/ee/c2ee21892e#!divAbstract
 

DBG

New Member
They're complaining about the noise and that they spoil their view of the harbour.
They ought to be careful what they complain about. If the navy goes, the ships will only be replaced by cruise liners which are probably bigger and generate more overall noise.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't see any delay in the white paper as necessarily being a good thing for the navy. It actually reminds of the Gillard government tossing out Rudd's white paper and replacing it with a very much stripped back version.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw further cutbacks in submarine, frigate and OPV numbers.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw further cutbacks in submarine, frigate and OPV numbers.
Further cutbacks? What cutbacks have we seen already?

While I can understand the pessimism, the Navy thread seems unusually prone to doom and gloom predictions. You are already counting cutbacks that are yet to happen.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Further cutbacks? What cutbacks have we seen already?

While I can understand the pessimism, the Navy thread seems unusually prone to doom and gloom predictions. You are already counting cutbacks that are yet to happen.
I am actually talking about the whitepaper. The ambitious program proposed by the Rudd whitepaper was significantly pared back by the Gillard government. I feel that the same will happen when Abbott's whitepaper is reviewed. The only difference is that the Abbott whitepaper won't see the light of day.

The Abbott whitepaper was very much dependent on defence spending hitting 2%. I really cant see that happening under Turnbull.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I am actually talking about the whitepaper. The ambitious program proposed by the Rudd whitepaper was significantly pared back by the Gillard government. I feel that the same will happen when Abbott's whitepaper is reviewed. The only difference is that the Abbott whitepaper won't see the light of day.

The Abbott whitepaper was very much dependent on defence spending hitting 2%. I really cant see that happening under Turnbull.
Any particular reason you don't see the 2% happening or are you merely taking a stab in the dark about his intentions?

Turnbull hasn't come out saying that we need to cut spending or that we are getting equipment too big in too large a number.

He has in fact improved the system by putting in place people that have a clue about what they are doing. Defence in regards to the government is in one of it's best positions since Howard.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Any particular reason you don't see the 2% happening or are you merely taking a stab in the dark about his intentions?

Turnbull hasn't come out saying that we need to cut spending or that we are getting equipment too big in too large a number.

He has in fact improved the system by putting in place people that have a clue about what they are doing. Defence in regards to the government is in one of it's best positions since Howard.
+1

in fact not suspending the whitepaper before the new PM and DefMin had reviewed and stamped would have been negligent

Lets hope the pair of them break the central agencies stranglehold as well
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
+1

in fact not suspending the whitepaper before the new PM and DefMin had reviewed and stamped would have been negligent

Lets hope the pair of them break the central agencies stranglehold as well
It will certainly be interesting what comes out of it. Given the view of people in now I would assume it has the best chance to shake things up for the better.

I think 2% is a reasonable target. I think it would be foolish to cut back all the work that has been done to date.

In future years I see many potential crisis. Bougainville independence vote (2015-2020). East Timor issues, PNG internal issues, Fiji issues, Indonesia, plus just more external stuff that will happen SCS, China, Asia, Middle east, Europe, Africa issues.

For a long time Australia has effectively pushed a lot these hard decisions in the future (some one elses problem in several elections in the future). These things are going to happen (there is no "if" about it).
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
good god, I just read some more swill on future subs

latest piece from nicholas stuart in the canberra times:

there is so much wrong with this its not funny - sometimes I just wish somebody in future subs would get out and demolish these half witted comments

cut down version

Submarines come at a price

Nicholas

Stuart

The news snippet was so brief you could have almost missed it, but the import is huge. Enormous. Last week, as a subtle signal hinting at the chaos and grief accompanying our continuing downright failure to sort out what sort of new submarines we need, the federal government appointed a retired US admiral to take charge
of the project. Retired Rear Admiral Stephen Johnson, the man who once managed the American Seawolf program(which produced the second-most expensive submarine ever built) is taking over. Pardon?

This is the clearest signal yet that our enormous, $50 billion submarine building project is now completely off the rails. An entire decade's work and effort and patch-up compromises (including recruiting teams of other ‘‘international experts’’) now scrapped as a result of political bungling and secrecy and incompetence.

Building submarines can be as expensive and as complex as a space program, or as simple as a visit to the supermarket. The key is to look at what's on offer,work out how much you’re prepared to pay, and then spend the money to get it.What you won't achieve, though, is a breakfast banquet for the price of a single Weet-Bix. The problem is,until now, no politician has been prepared to level with us and tell the truth. Look at what happened the last time someone dared to tell the truth. Just a year ago, then defence minister David Johnston, suddenly exploded in the Senate and admitted he ‘‘wouldn’t trust [the Australian Submarine Corporation] to build a canoe’’. He was abruptly sacked for that outburst. It was un-Australian. He should have known better. It’s not possible to denigrate inefficient industry and incompetent bureaucrats even – perhaps especially –when what's being said is true.
Labor’s Penny Wong thought she’d triumphed. She moved the Senate motion that successfully censured Johnston, ensuring his demise. But Wong might have learnt much more and uncovered a story of much greater political import had she unpicked what was being said, instead of rigidly enforcing political correctness.

What Wong ignored is the story of the prolonged disaster with the potential to rip apart either the budget or the defence of the country. So let’s start at the beginning: Kevin Rudd's ridiculous, un-costed and strategically illiterate thought bubble of a rolling program building a dozen submarines in Adelaide.

The idea could make sense. Nevertheless, as when you peruse the menu for breakfast, it requires Compromises.You want world beating technology built here: fine,and now cough up the money.You want cheap: great; there’s a good Japanese off-the-shelf model – and now tell me how that works with South Australian voters. No politician has been prepared to admit building submarines requires simple decisions that will determine the eventual outcome. Imagine a piece of string. That’s your submarine.Now join the ends using straight lines, with one side representing the subs range, another stealth, the third the number of vessels in your fleet, the fourth innovative design and the fifth local manufacture. Fold the string wherever you want, but each angle represents a compromise somewhere else. Decide to add to the length of the string.Go on, you know you want to, and you think it will solve the problem. The only issue is that now you’ve got to add some other extra dimensions as well: either severely curtail numbers in the surface fleet, raise taxes or cut the number of hospital nurses. It’s all up to you.

The politicians have been pretending the line just kept expanding like amagic pudding, or bubble gum, but now the ever inflating project has suddenly popped and exploded in our faces. Rudd imagined we could have 12 long-range boats without paying for them. Julia Gillard wanted an Adelaide build yet kept putting it off into the never-never because of the cost to capability. Tony Abbott wanted to buy from Japan but wouldn’t admit it until his prime ministership was falling apart because of South Australian votes – and a very big thank you, in this respect, to Christopher Pyne, member for Sturt. All just playing let’s pretend.

Simple decisions need to be made and explained; the string’s not going to get any bigger while we stand around and engage in wishful thinking.Up until now though, nobody’s been prepared to explain these choices to the electorate or pay the political price of clearly delineating exactly what the tradeoffs are.

The only way to add to the range of choices is to do things differently. That’s why it’s so utterly brilliant that Lockheed, SAAB and Thales have jointly combined to develop a submarine research laboratory in Adelaide to push the boundaries of what's possible. The future of underwater warfare isn’t in welding and riveting; it’s in remotely operated mini-submersibles. This is the future.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Dear god, I think I will need to avoid certain forums for a while now the "establishment" are suggesting that Johnston was right, rather than being a parochial perk loving bench warmer who wasn't across his brief. Also the cheek denigrating a USN Admiral over Seawolf, what a tool, it was over budget for the same reason Zumwalt is, they spent billions developing it then only built three, and the last to a quite different design.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Dear god, I think I will need to avoid certain forums for a while now the "establishment" are suggesting that Johnston was right, rather than being a parochial perk loving bench warmer who wasn't across his brief. Also the cheek denigrating a USN Admiral over Seawolf, what a tool, it was over budget for the same reason Zumwalt is, they spent billions developing it then only built three, and the last to a quite different design.
thats what really grates me is that the tone of his development vision makes it clear that he has no idea - and then to cap it off with bagging the USN Admiral when he clearly doesn't understand what was wrong with Seawolf at the admin level and what this bloke brings from lessons learnt imparted to the Virginias - and then to make it perfect he praises the Thales DCN solution

seriously, these idiots are the gift that keeps on giving, but the broader public will take him as having some inherent expertise

I hate defence journalism in this country - its occupied by absolute ignorami who can't even do basic research or understand fundamental constructs. You can see this bozo has accepted whats been dished up already as the future solution and has done no critical thinking himself on it

and if see more of this moronic contribution about long range subs, japanese builds and UUV's as the future I will go postal.

I need to get back into gun running so that I can use these dills to promote product that they don't understand :)
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
That is just Australian media for you, If it works it get's "maybe" a small mention. If it has the slightest hiccup they dramatize it till the point they are causing danger to our forces because politicians start to worry more about public perception then what the experts are saying.

I agree with freedom of the press but there bloody well needs to be a limit in that they actually have to use fact's that can be backed up, Not sprouting out BS with out even speaking to any one that will be using said equipment/platforms.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top