Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yep, agree, just to clarify what I was asking, Volk and Oberon were alluding to the fact that the Canberra's were built differently to the JC1 that would preclude them from operating the B's in the same way as Spain.

What changes do they think were made to the Canberra Class configuration compared to the JC1 ?

Cheers
My understanding is that materially the ships are not that different and that Spain essentially 'roll in' the addition facilites to support the AV-8B's.

However, the JC1 can only operate as an auxillary carrier and cannot support or sustain the number of aircraft or sortie rate of a dedicated platform.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My understanding is that materially the ships are not that different and that Spain essentially 'roll in' the addition facilites to support the AV-8B's.

However, the JC1 can only operate as an auxillary carrier and cannot support or sustain the number of aircraft or sortie rate of a dedicated platform.
I've understood that the JC1 was built to commercial class and had magazine and aviation bunkerage whereas ours are to Lloyds Naval rules and don't have the other "built in" capacity for fixed wing.
If these capacities are capable of being "roll in" that surely leaves options open for future decades should the capability be desired.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I've understood that the JC1 was built to commercial class and had magazine and aviation bunkerage whereas ours are to Lloyds Naval rules and don't have the other "built in" capacity for fixed wing.
If these capacities are capable of being "roll in" that surely leaves options open for future decades should the capability be desired.
Happy to be corrected, as my information is second had, but essentially JC1 and our LHD's are built to the same rule matrix as far as I am aware.

As I said, I could be wrong.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Complete change of topic, would the Frank S Besson Class logistic support vessel be a suitable replacement for the RANs LCHs?
Is it too large and expensive or would the SSGT Robert T Kuroda (LSV 7) sub class pretty much fit the bill of what we need to support the LHDs and Choules, not to mention the army with all the new AFVs proposed to come on line?
Should they remain RAN or would it be better to paint them Green and assign them to the Army?
With two LHDs, the Choules and their accompanying LCMs it would seem that the role of the LCH would be somewhat diminished.

Would the replacement for the LCH be required to make opposed beach landings or does the navy just need a RORO vessel to support operations?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With two LHDs, the Choules and their accompanying LCMs it would seem that the role of the LCH would be somewhat diminished.

Would the replacement for the LCH be required to make opposed beach landings or does the navy just need a RORO vessel to support operations?
Primary role is to get materiel from A to B where B and sometime A does not have port or dock facilities and its not viable to send Choules and LHD, LCM-1E or LCM-8. Remembering with land 400 the army will have more highly integrated heavy armour and supporting armour not less to there will be more call to affordably move and support this around the country.

Its not a sexy acquisition so may well get overlooked, I just hope not because without stuff like this operational capability can be seriously impaired.
 

Samoa

Member
Happy to be corrected, as my information is second had, but essentially JC1 and our LHD's are built to the same rule matrix as far as I am aware.

As I said, I could be wrong.
Not wrong. From a platform systems perspective the LHD is "as capable" as JC1 for fixed wing aircraft. The only major difference in that JC1 has a precision approach radar whereas LHD does not. But only a minor shortfall.

In fact there has been some questions from DMO about what would be necessary to support limited fixed wing operations (more likely in support of UAV operations), and basically the answer is none. Of course no specific requirements were discussed, so it can't be certain until all of the support system specifications and CONOPS were defined (which as far as I know thy haven't !).
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Happy to be corrected, as my information is second had, but essentially JC1 and our LHD's are built to the same rule matrix as far as I am aware.

As I said, I could be wrong.
My reference re Lloyds Naval Rules for Canberra was from a previous post here but I can't find it now. Checked on Wiki which confirms the difference Canberra-class landing helicopter dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and the lack of aviation armament magazines and bunkerage for fixed wing has been discussed on here before. However, I'd be happy if this wasn't the case.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Complete change of topic, would the Frank S Besson Class logistic support vessel be a suitable replacement for the RANs LCHs?
Is it too large and expensive or would the SSGT Robert T Kuroda (LSV 7) sub class pretty much fit the bill of what we need to support the LHDs and Choules, not to mention the army with all the new AFVs proposed to come on line?
Should they remain RAN or would it be better to paint them Green and assign them to the Army?
Well actually I think the RAN needs something like your suggestion of LSV but I would suggest the Bacolod City-class logistics support vessel a helicopter-capable variant of the General Frank S. Besson-class.

As part of the of the 2013 White Paper the primary focus of the ADF is
1. deter and defeat armed attacks on Australia
2. contribute to stability and security in the South Pacific and Timor-Leste
3. contribute to military contingencies in the Indo-Pacific region, with priority given to Southeast Asia
4. Contribute to military contingencies in support of global security.

The LHD and Choules would find themselves contributing to all contingencies in the above, in the past the ADF was stretched pretty thin with contributions on level 4 whilst also simultaneously contributing to HADR operation within the South Pacific and Indo-Pacific region for this reason having Logistics Support Vessels that can function within all the realms within the primary focus of the white Paper. A LSV which has a global strategic capability to deliver its vehicles and cargo if need met the needs of the greater ADF when dealing with more than one type of operation within all the levels of the white paper.

Another option would be the but larger bare bones Endurance-class landing platform dock instead of the vessel being able beach itself it would use the same landing craft as the LHD whist conducting Logistics Over-the-Shore. Only problem is the crewing arrangements this is where the LSV comes out on top.
 

hairyman

Active Member
A slight change of subject, this Damen OPV we have purchased, I take it it is to train Helicopter pilots to land on frigates and destroyers, and perhaps future OPV's. Would that be correct?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well actually I think the RAN needs something like your suggestion of LSV but I would suggest the Bacolod City-class logistics support vessel a helicopter-capable variant of the General Frank S. Besson-class.

As part of the of the 2013 White Paper the primary focus of the ADF is
1. deter and defeat armed attacks on Australia
2. contribute to stability and security in the South Pacific and Timor-Leste
3. contribute to military contingencies in the Indo-Pacific region, with priority given to Southeast Asia
4. Contribute to military contingencies in support of global security.

The LHD and Choules would find themselves contributing to all contingencies in the above, in the past the ADF was stretched pretty thin with contributions on level 4 whilst also simultaneously contributing to HADR operation within the South Pacific and Indo-Pacific region for this reason having Logistics Support Vessels that can function within all the realms within the primary focus of the white Paper. A LSV which has a global strategic capability to deliver its vehicles and cargo if need met the needs of the greater ADF when dealing with more than one type of operation within all the levels of the white paper.

Another option would be the but larger bare bones Endurance-class landing platform dock instead of the vessel being able beach itself it would use the same landing craft as the LHD whist conducting Logistics Over-the-Shore. Only problem is the crewing arrangements this is where the LSV comes out on top.
I had a similar thought along the lines of the Endurance but didn't suggest it for the crewing and size reasons. It would actually be the most sensible way to go with between two and four being ordered as supplements to the LHDs and Choules but I fear they would be seen as too capable and would very much be seen as a gilded RAN asset.

That said they would be ideal not just for the amphibious and logistical support role but outstanding as motherships for MCM, counter piracy, assault boats in littoral warfare / counter insurgency missions etc. a true multi role platform used in the many and varied ways we used to use Kanimbla and Manoora plus many more. The argument would be that we have the LHDs so what would we need the smaller ships for and the answer is because they are smaller they can be deployed far more frequently and usefully in missions we would never consider using the big ships for.

Back on the LSV suggestion, I agree with the helo option and remember the capability was part of the white paper proposal for larger, helicopter capable replacements for the LCHs. The Kuroda subclass with is greater length and visor bow would be a good start point. The advantage the LSV has is being a US Army vessel we could actually sneak it in under the radar as a replacement for the LCH and LCM8 as an Army owned and operated asset, maybe even getting a full six of them. These are far more than a LCH and are closer in fact to Tobruk in size and capability which is not a bad thing, just a politically difficult issue if picked up on.

Either option would be great, modified Endurance or LSV, my biggest concern is with the LCHs all retired by the end of the year the capability may me forgotten. Maybe an option could be to transfer the H's to the Army and even recommission the currently retired three. The reason, as I understand it for the retirements was to free up additional crews for the LHDs and LCM-1Es. This hasn't exactly worked and many H crews seem to be heading to PBs or stewing in FSUs rather then moving south. Irrespective I imagine there would be a few Army WO who would love the opportunity to captains an H as the pinnacle of their career.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Hi Volkodov

You bring up some good points in regards to the flexibility of Endurance class vessel. Government will look at Choules and say all that, the US is doing the same with USS Ponce as a Afloat Forward Staging Base, Interim (AFSB-I).

Looking at the operational history of the Balikpapan-class LCH suggests these were used primarily in HADR and supporting the Kanimbla class moving large amounts of cargo, personnel and equipment from larger ships to shore, the longest ocean voyage was completed by HMAS Balikpapan she completed a 5,400-nautical-mile (10,000 km; 6,200 mi) transit from Brisbane to Penang . I’d like to think RAN could put up a case for 3 LSV. From what I have ascertained is JP 2048 Phase 1A construction project is valued at around $50 million AUD so pretty much rules out an LSV.

Taking the case to government on an Afloat Forward Staging Base with Endurance has its merits, we will eventually only have 2x LHD and 1x LPD. Choules was bought under the premise of strategic sea lift but when an ARG sails all the vessels within fleet will be occupied under this tasking. The way I see it is we either leave Choules in that role or return it back to Strategic lift. ARE needs a dedicated vessel which can support it with NGS and land attack capability a modified Endurance or Absalon-class support ship would fill this role as well as have flexibility to use assault boats in littoral warfare / counter insurgency missions unfortunately the LSV miss the ability to do this, but would have the added benefit of freeing up Choules in the role without the NGS mission.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
I do see a problem with the RAN trying to cover for the loss of the LCH. Tasking one of their large amphibs to do the job of the LCH would be overkill.

I think using something like the 6500 ton Endurance class would also be seen as overkill.

An idea maybe to go with something completely out of left field.

http://www.austal.com/Resources/Del...-8693-bcf8493e31cf/mrv-80-data-sheets-sml.pdf
The MRV does not have over the beach capability.

If this requirement was eliminated then I would propose a version of the Rolls Royce UT527, outfitted as a mini Absolon as a replacement for both the LCHs and the ACPB

24 of these ships could act as OPVs, MCM, survey and small transports. They would capable of supporting anti piracy patrols or landing and supporting an Army task group.

They are also twice the tonnage and twice the cost of any thing we will realisticly get.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I do see a problem with the RAN trying to cover for the loss of the LCH. Tasking one of their large amphibs to do the job of the LCH would be overkill.

I think using something like the 6500 ton Endurance class would also be seen as overkill.

An idea maybe to go with something completely out of left field.

http://www.austal.com/Resources/Del...-8693-bcf8493e31cf/mrv-80-data-sheets-sml.pdf
Compared to an LCH they would be expensive to run, fragile, limited uplift and lack a beaching capability........ which is very useful in the areas these ships have been operating.

If you look at PNG and the Solomons (and norther Australia) there are a lot of landing craft for good reason.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Caimen-200 seems to be on the money. However, add a flight deck to the standard Caiman-200 design.

View attachment 6254
The added internal area would create extra room for storage, fresh water or holding area for immigrants or unlawful people.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lhh_Li2vio

http://http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-portfolio/bmt-caimen-landing-craft/
Correcting the links.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lhh_Li2vio

BMT Caimen Landing Craft | BMT Defence Services
 

koala

Member
I might be the dumbest defence enthusiast out there but I want our nation secure and demand (well through my vote) that our defence personnel have the best tools available.
It appears a no brainer that we need a full compliment of strike fighters, now we have the F18's in there various models with the growlers yet to come.
I agree we need our Hornets and now long forgotten (king of the sky) F111's
replaced.
As an arm chair general and yes I have been friends with the real (Sir Peter GG) but still I am a nobody but just an Australian
I think our decision is correct to order the F35'a but there are critics against a short squadron of B's in the future.
All the huff and puff is about operating "b's" of the LHD's but wouldn't they be a force multiplier in bare bones airfield?
So long as they are not compromising our main strike fight, I as a taxpayer would be happy to pay for a few extra's
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I might be the dumbest defence enthusiast out there but I want our nation secure and demand (well through my vote) that our defence personnel have the best tools available.
It appears a no brainer that we need a full compliment of strike fighters, now we have the F18's in there various models with the growlers yet to come.
I agree we need our Hornets and now long forgotten (king of the sky) F111's
replaced.
As an arm chair general and yes I have been friends with the real (Sir Peter GG) but still I am a nobody but just an Australian
I think our decision is correct to order the F35'a but there are critics against a short squadron of B's in the future.
All the huff and puff is about operating "b's" of the LHD's but wouldn't they be a force multiplier in bare bones airfield?
So long as they are not compromising our main strike fight, I as a taxpayer would be happy to pay for a few extra's
Operating the F-35B from an LHD would be significantly less than ideal in that the LHDs aren't really designed to support sustained fixed wing air, despite the ski jump. From my (admittedly limited) understanding, you could technically operate a limited number of jets, but features such as fuel/munitions storage, elevator locations, deck features etc aren't optimised to suit a "carrier" type role.

A big part of carrier operations is sustaining sortie rates - and a purpose-designed aircraft carrier would put an LHD to shame in that regard. It's not so much that it's impossible, it's that any carrier capability provided by an LHD as designed would be pretty marginal.

I'm sure most Australians who post here would love to see the RAN get back into the carrier game, but at the moment I'd just like to see the initial order of F-35As firmed up and safe from budget cuts before we start talking about using one of only two LHDs to provide a makeshift carrier capability, which would still require significantly more money at a time when all three armed services have procurement requirements, as well as substantial changes in terms of concept of operations and training/crewing requirements. In other words, the cost and capability loss associated with using one of the existing LHDs as a carrier far outstrips (in my opinion) the capability delivered.

Another issue is the sustainment of the capability when not in use. As far as I know, two LHDs means the RAN can have one LHD at sea most of the time, and if properly arranged the RAN can surge the deployment of both at the same time, sometimes. Now given this arrangement, it seems logical to assume there will be significant stretches of time in which the RAN wishes to deploy one or both LHDs with rotary and small marine assets rather than fixed wing air, such as operations in support of regional disaster relief, or sealift operations to deploy or in support of land forces. So what to do with the F-35Bs, and their pilots and all the associated support staff, when they're not deployed on an LHD? How do you maintain "carrier" qualifications when the capability is so infrequently necessary and thus unlikely to be taken to sea?

Like I said, a lot of people here would like to see a carrier capability back in the RAN. Now it's highly unlikely, but if it were to somehow come true, let it be with a true, purpose-built aircraft carrier, or at the very least a third LHD with design modifications to optimise it for fixed wing operations. Let HMAS Canberra and Adelaide be used in operations for which they are best suited. If the only options were a handful of F-35Bs operating off one of the two existing LHDs or a fourth Hobart-class destroyer and CEAFAR/CEAMOUNT on all the ANZAC-class frigates, I'm afraid I'd take the surface fleet upgrades. Having said that Abe might well tear this post to pieces when/if he reads it, and he's far more knowledgeable about these things than I...
 

Gordon Branch

New Member
Of course there is the issue hinted at in your reply Bonza but not explicitly stated; The LHD capability is predicated on having two LHDs. If you are operating one of the LHDs as a CVL you come up short in amphibious capability.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top