Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[the road runner]

There's a reason why defence journalism in Australia is generally regarded within industry as a joke - ie they have NFI what they write about.

Kind of like most of us punters ,me included

Hugh White has written an article for The AGE

Australia's security can't be subdivided

I guess most of us civilians will get a better idea of the direction we are headed for once the White Paper comes out in 2015.Hugh White dose ask some good questions of what the white paper should have in to to make the Def Ministers job easier in selecting what path we go down.

At least this article was not talking about how bad collins is and how we need a euro design or a nuke boat.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Kind of like most of us punters ,me included

Hugh White has written an article for The AGE

Australia's security can't be subdivided

I guess most of us civilians will get a better idea of the direction we are headed for once the White Paper comes out in 2015.Hugh White dose ask some good questions of what the white paper should have in to to make the Def Ministers job easier in selecting what path we go down.

At least this article was not talking about how bad collins is and how we need a euro design or a nuke boat.

The difficulty I have with defence debate is that invariably the quality of journalism is seriously sub par (no pun intended) and that it has to go unchallenged by those who could counter it effectively (for a variety of reasons)

there's a difference between people who read, ask, challenge, question, goto start etc.... than those who would read articles in The Aust or Weekend Aust and assume that its a qualitative inciteful cut at the problems and reasons for wanting to acquire a class or type of platform.

Hugh White is hardly in a position to offer quality advice considering some of the coqueups he was responsible for....

unfort you can guarantee that the rest of the armchair opinions about big subs having better range - and small sub advocates countering with Type 21 stats in response as a pretty good indicator that thanatosis should now set in so as to save whats left of your sanity

 

[the road runner]

Hockey's wallet has a moth flying out of it !

Think you will find we will not head down a euro design.
Australia will hopefully design its own sub with the capability needed by the RAN

Or we will go down an evolved collins design.

I am curious ,as to why ASC or the Government did not purchase kockums?
Did we look into that?

You should write a blog gf or even better get paid to write for The Australian.

 

[phreeky]

There's a reason why defence journalism in Australia is generally regarded within industry as a joke - ie they have NFI what they write about.

I don't think there is anything specific about journalism in Australia, nor the coverage of defence matters. Journalism world wide is poor and across all manner of topics - essentially anything that requires in-depth analysis.

The politicians don't help though - it's not hard to find a youtube clip of an Aus defence minister publically having a go at defence and the Collins when it almost certainly should've been handled differently.

 

[Volkodav]

I can't help but wonder how much of the poor state of journalism in Australia (and to a degree overseas) can be attributed to the power held by one particular individual within the media world. I wonder if things will improve once that individual eventually dies as I can not see him releasing his tight grip until the day his heart stops beating.

 

[John Fedup]

I can't help but wonder how much of the poor state of journalism in Australia (and to a degree overseas) can be attributed to the power held by one particular individual within the media world. I wonder if things will improve once that individual eventually dies as I can not see him releasing his tight grip until the day his heart stops beating.

I figure the replacement will just be a clone so improvement is unlikely. Other news organizations aren't much better, no matter which continent (except maybe Antarctica, where most writers are scientists).

 

[John Fedup]

In respect the spanish s80 submarine, updates from the modified design:
-9000 nm range at 8 knots surface.
-600 kwts aip power.
-14 days aip at 8 knots.
-28 days aip at 5 knots.
-patrol 28 days at 2000 nm from port.
-depth over 350 mts.

Source Navantia.

Prepare the wallet.

Has Navantia resolved the S-80's flotation problem yet and how much did it cost?

 

[aussienscale]

In respect the spanish s80 submarine, updates from the modified design:
-9000 nm range at 8 knots surface.
-600 kwts aip power.
-14 days aip at 8 knots.
-28 days aip at 5 knots.
-patrol 28 days at 2000 nm from port.
-depth over 350 mts.

Source Navantia.

Prepare the wallet.

"Prepare the wallet" ? for what ? Are you suggesting the S-80 is suitable for the RAN's needs ?

It does not even come close, and the only thing you will be preparing the wallet for is to fix the sub fleet for its entire life cycle trying to achieve the original requirements and never getting there.

 

[King Wally]

I don't think there is anything specific about journalism in Australia, nor the coverage of defence matters. Journalism world wide is poor and across all manner of topics - essentially anything that requires in-depth analysis.
.

No profit to be made these days via good press journalism. The newspaper industry is bleeding cash and the new realm of online news has become so preoccupied with click rates and 24 hour "more is more" news cycles that it's been the death of any reliable in depth balanced defence reporting in the mainstream media.

You can still get some good stuff, but you really need to go head hunt it rather then lurk on news.com.au

ie.
Australian Defence News | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter

 

[ngatimozart]

In respect the spanish s80 submarine, updates from the modified design:
-9000 nm range at 8 knots surface.
-600 kwts aip power.
-14 days aip at 8 knots.
-28 days aip at 5 knots.
-patrol 28 days at 2000 nm from port.
-depth over 350 mts.

Source Navantia.

Prepare the wallet.

I very strongly suggest you read back through this thread to widen your knowledge. You also need to read the forum rules especially with regard to posting. A subsurface range of 2000nm wouldn't even get it from Sydney to Perth let alone to it's area of ops.

 

[ngatimozart]

No profit to be made these days via good press journalism. The newspaper industry is bleeding cash and the new realm of online news has become so preoccupied with click rates and 24 hour "more is more" news cycles that it's been the death of any reliable in depth balanced defence reporting in the mainstream media.

You can still get some good stuff, but you really need to go head hunt it rather then lurk on news.com.au

ie.
Australian Defence News | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter

Maybe. If it's the same as what he's written here then at least he's nailed his colours to the mast. I don't know enough about USN WW2 sub ops in the Pacific to comment. Certainly a big difference between $40 billion and the $20 billion that the the head of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems claims. Given based on what I have read on this thread, I have to wonder on what he bases his figures and in what context.
ASPI

 

[John Newman]

No profit to be made these days via good press journalism. The newspaper industry is bleeding cash and the new realm of online news has become so preoccupied with click rates and 24 hour "more is more" news cycles that it's been the death of any reliable in depth balanced defence reporting in the mainstream media.

You can still get some good stuff, but you really need to go head hunt it rather then lurk on news.com.au

ie.
Australian Defence News | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter

Wally,

Whilst I agree with you about the mainstream media, and that includes the right wing comments of News Ltd, the left wing comments on Fairfax and especially the ABC too!!

I also think that publications such as APDR (I used to buy their magazine regularly about 30 years ago when it was PDR) also has a barrow to push at times.

In recent times I've seen articles/editorials about various projects, they regularly talk about the Collins replacement project and for quiet a while kept talking about the Spanish option and guess what there was usually an 'advert' on that page from the builder of said Spanish sub!

The same with the fleet tanker replacements, an editorial or article that talks about the various options and usually ends in suggesting that Cantabria is the appropriate choice and guess what? On the bottom of the page is an advert for Navantia!!

My rule is, read all articles from all sources, balance that by the particular political focus of that publication, then read DT to sort the 'wheat from the chaff' and there is you answer!!!

 

[gf0012-aust]

I think I've written to 5 newspapers and TV stations pointing out that Bluefin 21 is not a sub and that it didn't exceed its operating limits as reported the other day - even attempted to suggest which industry journals and editors of pubs they should attempt to talk to

and yet we still see Bluefin 21 described as a sub....

you've got buckleys chance of trying to get these morons to describe the payload and how they work.

and then they interview another "expert" who says that because the seabed is deep and unmapped that they will struggle to know whats different on the seabed.

FMD! the aperture mapping doesn't care what the seabed looks like - and the analysts are smart enough to recognise that the odd shaped digital image getting returned is obviously not a moray eel or sea slug

/rant off
/flecks of spit off

 

[Bonza]

I very strongly suggest you read back through this thread to widen your knowledge. You also need to read the forum rules especially with regard to posting. A subsurface range of 2000nm wouldn't even get it from Sydney to Perth let alone to it's area of ops.

I agree, copy-pasted numbers on a notional "upsized" European sub flaunting AIP as a feature has no place in this thread.

Geomil, pull your head in and do some reading through the thread as suggested above, touting the S-80 as a Collins replacement won't do you any favours and posting copy-pasted "stats" is strongly discouraged.

 

[Richo99]

Geomil, pull your head in....

Way to encourage first time posters......

 

[ngatimozart]

Way to encourage first time posters......

Mate don't pick a fight you ain't going to win. The mods are extra grumpy at the moment. Thing is what he posted is rubbish and it is just a cut and paste which is against the rules. Yes us blue names should and do encourage new posters but like everybody else they gotta respect the rules. I'm not a mod here so I don't have to worry about all the crap they have to put up with.

 

[Bonza]

Way to encourage first time posters......

If you want to encourage first time posters then by all means go ahead. But I have no interest in discussing it with you, nor am I interested in any further sarcastic one-liners.

 

[alexsa]

The only thing i know is that for Australia, Norway and the many countries that are going to make queue the s80b is going to be a bit more expensive than the initial s80, but not much more, a few meters of steel and better aip plant.


Hurry up because Navantia is going to have a lot of customers.

Your passion is admirable but even AIP will not provide the S80 with range and persistence sought in the Australian context. Navantia are certainly able of building complex and capable ships (as evidenced by the fact we are buying a number of their products), however, this does not mean all their products suit Australian needs.

 

[MickB]

The only thing i know is that for Australia, Norway and the many countries that are going to make queue the s80b is going to be a bit more expensive than the initial s80, but not much more, a few meters of steel and better aip plant.


Hurry up because Navantia is going to have a lot of customers.

I do not know your own expertise, (my own is nil) but I have learned to listen when the Pro's speak. In fact many times I wish they would elaberate more, give even more detail.

 

[Bonza]

The only thing i know is that for Australia, Norway and the many countries that are going to make queue the s80b is going to be a bit more expensive than the initial s80, but not much more, a few meters of steel and better aip plant.


Hurry up because Navantia is going to have a lot of customers.

Can you present any sources as to costings of the submarine design you're describing, or sources indicating that "Australia, Norway and many other countries" are planning to procure this design?

At best you're jumping the gun very significantly. At worst, well, you're making things up.