Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well i heard 24 subs for India, 32 for China, North Korean ones and the Russian quite a few. Sudden conflict. Enough subs for having an attitude in the game defensive or ofensive? Who rules the initiative is who has the best balance in sea, air, and underwater, more sensors more info.
DE subs can not keep up with surface groups therefore can not be used to defend them. They could be pre-deployed to sanitise choke points and the intended area of operation but thats about it. One of the most effective uses of a submarine force is the fact that if the enemy doesn't know where your subs are they have to assume they could be in the most inconvenient (form them) locations.

Task force ASW is much better carried out using a combination of land based MPA, ship based ASW Helo and ship based towed array and VD sonar and in the future deployable sea bed arrays and UUVs.
 
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jack412

Active Member
Volkodav
i read the collins was designed to keep up with our surface fleet at speed and definitely when in disputed waters where i think the speed would be lower
 

SASWanabe

Member
they come close.... submerged speed for a collins is about 21 knots an ANZAC is about 27 knots Hobarts are supposed to be 28+ knots maximum speed.

i think average speed for all 3 is around 18 knots...
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Actually a militar tanker for the sub should have the gears and cranes to put the pipe on the sub, this just has to open and close the door. For the fuel and the Vertrep. Good sea state.

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Not that simple. I honestly suggest you need a better understanding of equipment limitations before making such suggestions. In either case the sub needs to be in close quaters with the replenishing ship. Normal RAS high points don't really appear to be an option hence along side or towed are the two options.

Again buildin grange in is a better lower riss option. I will refrain from further comment.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
they come close.... submerged speed for a collins is about 21 knots an ANZAC is about 27 knots Hobarts are supposed to be 28+ knots maximum speed.

i think average speed for all 3 is around 18 knots...
In a DE sub its submerged range is extremely limited at speed, remember they run on batteries when submerged. The 21kts + is a dash speed only, for long range deployments think less than 8kt. To keep up with a suface group they would have to frequently / constantly snort.

Technically a Collins could deploy as part of a surface group but the trade off would be degraded sonar performance and perhaps more seriously the other guy would know exactly where one of your subs is.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Volkodav said:
Technically a Collins could deploy as part of a surface group but the trade off would be degraded sonar performance and perhaps more seriously the other guy would know exactly where one of your subs is.
The initial brief for collins was to be able to emulate nuke duty cycles and be able to provide HK support to US nukes or 7th Fleet skimmers...

assist doesn't mean emulate nuke warfighting speeds but to be able to get to station in a timeframe which is productive ....

trawling around the SC Sea and PACRIM assumes that some assets are already in striking and assistance range anyway.....
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The initial brief for collins was to be able to emulate nuke duty cycles and be able to provide HK support to US nukes or 7th Fleet skimmers...

assist doesn't mean emulate nuke warfighting speeds but to be able to get to station in a timeframe which is productive ....

trawling around the SC Sea and PACRIM assumes that some assets are already in striking and assistance range anyway.....
Thanks gf, for the life of me I couldn't contemplate a Collins ever deploying as part of a surface group as it defeats the purpose of having a stealthy platform in the first place.

Pre deploying to the area of operation ahead of the task force makes much more sense. Subs are the Navy's elite special forces, they go in first, scout, and were necessary apply lethal force, creating effects often far in excess of their actual firepower.

Forcing them to operate as part of a surface group would be like embedding an SAS troop in an armored combat team, they would improve the capability of the group but lose much of their own flexibility and unique capability.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks gf, for the life of me I couldn't contemplate a Collins ever deploying as part of a surface group as it defeats the purpose of having a stealthy platform in the first place.
it does go against their raison d'etre :)

Pre deploying to the area of operation ahead of the task force makes much more sense. Subs are the Navy's elite special forces, they go in first, scout, and were necessary apply lethal force, creating effects often far in excess of their actual firepower.


fundamentally, subs are always at war, not as obviously in the current climate, but nonetheless, they notionally are. There's been any number of times when material conceptually supports the concept that they are the underwater version of the SASR.

Forcing them to operate as part of a surface group would be like embedding an SAS troop in an armored combat team, they would improve the capability of the group but lose much of their own flexibility and unique capability.


yep, makes no sense, but that's the danger of the 1000mile screwdriver in battle management with current C2/3/4/5 capability. Its a problem the US already has witnessed, and some would argue that UK, Aust have also suffered from this a bit, the Canadians have either managed to avoid the problem or been able to work out how to not have airplay on it....

there's already a view that the SASR are over committed on general warfighting when those roles could more than adequately be picked up by regs. I imagine AD and Abe would get quite vocal over this.
 
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LancasterBomber

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Mark Miodownik, a materials scientist at King’s College London, announced the new proposal at the Royal Institution’s Christmas lecture which is set to be broadcast on BBC4 at the end of the month. Speaking about the concept of a ‘space elevator’, Miodownik said, “The idea of an elevator into space has been around for some decades now and was popularized by Arthur C. Clarke, the science fiction writer, in his 1979 book The Fountains of Paradise. However the idea was never practical because there was no material strong enough to support its own weight over the huge distance necessary to reach from Earth to space.” “What has changed is the discovery of carbon nanotubes, a form of carbon that can be woven into fibers. They are still under development [and] in theory they are strong enough to reach into space.”

If it was constructed, such a cable would need to be kept under tension by the forces of gravity and outward centrifugal acceleration. In theory, the counterweight, which would keep the whole thing stable, would be a docking and refuelling station for future space missions. In fact, NASA has pledged $3 million over the next five years to research the idea and is working on scale models.

Carbon nanotubes are a modern material with tremendous potential. While they are less than 1/50,000 the width of a hair, when wound together a string the width of a sewing thread could hold the weight of a car. In theory, it could support the 30 tons per square millimetre needed to constructed such an incredible system. Miodownik added, “Carbon nanotubes are still under development but they are the first material we have seen that could be strong enough for this task.”
Obviously we are all up to speed on basic material science underpinning carbon nanotubes but there is a lot of potential and a ton of lateral applications. As the research advances so should we not shirk our responsibility to move our doctrines forward (at least in theory).

What concerns me (to some degree) is the almost linear mindset in the way we perceive submarines. From a material science/design perspective and subsequently from a platform doctrine/parent navy perspective.

What fundamentally concerns me is the launching of mk-48 torpedoes from the mothership when on station in wartime. It is unquestionably 20th century. It remains a deadly tactic to be sure but it is predictable (potentially a 'one-shot' strategy).

Personally I perceive modern submarine design (particularly from a weapons embarkation and deployment perspective) as virtually archaic. This is not to unfairly critic modern designers but to highlight (what I perceive to be) a long period of material science stagnation. Granted it is one thing to discover material science advancements it is very much another thing to approach successful defence project integration.

Nevertheless my view holds firm that modern submarines are octopuses of the deep without their 'optimum' natural defence. That is to say they are without their tentacles. Without the ability to protect their mothership by the deployment of weaponry external from the mothership to maintain 'optimum' levels of stealth even amidst a live battlespace.

In a sea denial mission when the mothership comes on station it can settle into a minimal 'high stealth' maneuvering state. On station all mk-48 torpedos (or future weapon variants) are immediately released from the mothership in a carbon nanotube 'tethered' state. They are positioned (using UUV tech) hundreds of nmiles from the mothership in all directions dependent upon strategic imperatives. They maintain combat system integration via optic fibre link entwined in the carbon nanotube tether.

I expect a 'return home' functionality to built into future torpedo development. In essence a marrying of UUV conceptual research with our existing mk-48 ADCAP strategic alliance. No longer is passive sonar the domain of the mothership...save that discussion for another day.

A mothership will deploy 10-12 of these tethered mk-48/UUV 'tentacles' allowing a sea denial strategy to range 1000's of nmiles simultaneously.

We can rewrite any number of doctrines potentially. We can 'peer into' the box on station without exposing the mothership to historical levels of risk (ISR). We can spread wide in a coastal defence scenario or we can project force forward allowing us to 'stay and fight' as opposed to 'fight and flight'.

As SSK we need to be able to both maintain the integrity of our stealth and deploy multiple warheads simultaneously from different vectors.

I wont go into it right now but the design methodology of 'weapons embarkation' should be re-written. Its a non-negotiable IMO.

**Some of the above discussion is technologically 'rudimentary' in the sense that it raises more questions than answers. Nevertheless I thought I would contribute it anyway.**
 

BlankReg

New Member
Obviously we are all up to speed on basic material science underpinning carbon nanotubes...
Well, of course we are!

If we are going to start speculating on the uses of carbon nanotubes in military matters then it will quickly overtake this thread.

Carbon nanotubes promise to be THE transformative material in human history till now, eclipsing the effects of stone, bronze, iron, steel and plastics on human society and technology. Its applications are near endless, and its strength is only one of its advantages, as it also has optical and electrical properties.

However, given the longest nanotube made so far has been about a foot long, you might be waiting some time for space elevators and strategic octopodes. Current commercial applications consist of weaving nanotubes into composite materials in order to add strength.

A far more interesting application (in the context of the SSK discussion above) is the use of carbon nanotubes in energy storage, specifically submarine batteries. A recent research article showed that batteries using nanotubes for electrodes provide 10 times the power delivery rate of current batteries for a given weight, while also showing no performance degradation over time that is typical of current batteries.

Some time back in this thread there was a discussion about the next-gen submarines being nuclear and gf0012-aust jumping firmly on speculation by saying the submarines WILL be conventional, and that new technologies will make AIP redundant. Carbon nanotubes would be one of the technologies he was referring to.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What fundamentally concerns me is the launching of mk-48 torpedoes from the mothership when on station in wartime. It is unquestionably 20th century. It remains a deadly tactic to be sure but it is predictable (potentially a 'one-shot' strategy).
true, but we are looking at things like dismounted weapons......
 

LancasterBomber

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A far more interesting application (in the context of the SSK discussion above) is the use of carbon nanotubes in energy storage, specifically submarine batteries. A recent research article showed that batteries using nanotubes for electrodes provide 10 times the power delivery rate of current batteries for a given weight, while also showing no performance degradation over time that is typical of current batteries.
Above comment is a classic example.

We have a lot of people with a linear mindset to material science applications in submarine technology in the US, UK and Australia.

It concerns me. (Yes the complexities of technological design implementation is not lost on me...)

Whilst superior battery endurance is a fundamental concept worthy of pursuit. It (alone) does not however afford us a new comparative advantage in the battlespace. Better batteries alone does not represent an advancement in national security.

It is the non-linear lateral applications of material science advancements that potentially generate comparative advantage across platforms. If we must assume we will forgo the ability to leverage 'scale' in the battlespace (as we surely will given the global geo-political and socio-economic shifts) then we must be prepared to promote the pursuit of material science applications that deliver "doctrine revolutions" rather than mere evolutions.
 

Jaimito

Banned Member
I paste two pictures related with that in the past appeared info related to the growth possibilities from F100 design in the Australian context.

One picture, which i pasted before, and do it now to comment better about an extended F100 design, the other picture is from conference from one Navantia´s executive engineer that points that the extended F100 design shares most of F100 blocks, as it has a blue colored zone as the growth zone. So that the original F100 design has taken into account future growth possibilites for more blocks in that zone. Then it is not just that the F100 original design can grow uptp 6500-7000 t. without changing dimensions, but also growth in length ie in dimensions.

In the case of the extended F100:
-162 mts vs 147 in F100.
-2 helos hangars.
-32 more vls.
-3 mk directors vs 2 F100.
-probably same torpedos, at least, as F100.
-the Sea Ram or Ciws kept in both designs.
-and still room for either: another Sea Ram or Ciws, or another main ship big gun, or another 32 vls (upto 112), or another important system like these.
-probably more fuelage.

And then this extendend F100 design, compared to an Evolved Burke, as it was planned for the Awd, and it won´t be very different in capabilities. So compare the difference from evolving a whole ship from Burke to Evolved Burke, that is the complexity of reducing maybe 2000 or 3000 t. the tonnage and dimensions, probably all dimensions of the ship, compare it with evolve an F100 design in terms of a single or 2 blocks to be plugged in the F100 design.

So that is the potential impressive in the Anzac 2, and some design work for Australian yards.

Edit: actually if they are in time to design it for the next 2 Awd´s still for being built...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It is the non-linear lateral applications of material science advancements that potentially generate comparative advantage across platforms. If we must assume we will forgo the ability to leverage 'scale' in the battlespace (as we surely will given the global geo-political and socio-economic shifts) then we must be prepared to promote the pursuit of material science applications that deliver "doctrine revolutions" rather than mere evolutions.
4 years ago I was involved with some materials science work involving titanium and ceramics, CSIRO had done some parallel development and come up with some extraordinary achievements. The irony was that what they had done had significant military implications and they were oblivious, They had licensed the tech to a German manufacturer who wanted to manage heat transference in high powered engines. What they had done however had direct implications on JSF solutions.

whats required IMO is to make sure that the civlian geeks (CSIRO) and the milgeeks (DSTO) and our coalition geek partners (DARPA, ONR, etc...) are fully informed about what we are all doing.

The fiefdoms that exist in DSTO and CSIRO are unfort legacy outcomes of a succession of Governents which expect them to have commercial nouse but do nothing to assist in helping them grow. or worse, when they score significant wins (CSIRO and wireless licensing tech), the Govt cuts their budgets but still takes the legal wins back into consolidated revenue.

pherquing small minded politicians do more damage than anyone in these circumstances.:eek:
 
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SASWanabe

Member
the F100 is an intersting design if you can just add peices to the middle of it.

leave it be if you want a frigate, add 1 if you want a destroyer add another 1-2 if you want a cruiser, add 10 if you want a Battleship ;)

i doubt the RAN could convince the government to go for it tho, being their supposed to be frigates, dont think it would go down well if they're more powerful than our destroyers :D
 

Jaimito

Banned Member
If an industrial schedule and investment has been compromised for the 3 Awd in a row and think its worth to give to the other 2 Awds not yet started, give 112 vls for all the types of missiles and so need some time to design it and so delay them both, then the industrial compromise could be maintaned with:
-starting some subs.
-starting some Anzac 2 in F100 design size, with the available radar system (Auspar, Ceafar, and combat system (?)).
-starting replenishments.
-starting some Ocv´s.

Now i don´t know the capabilities gained by Anzac 2 due to Cec and combat system, in terms of need of 112 cells x 2 is 224 cells in Awd or 96 in 2 48´s, like 3 more Awds (but just a bit more expensive).

Would the combat system and Auspar Ceafar ready now for it? But probably Ran decided about this ago.
 

BlankReg

New Member
Above comment is a classic example.
Being aware of development reality isn't an example of being trapped by linear thinking.
Humans aren't born fully developed. Technology isn't created fully developed. Each require a series of stages that must be undertaken in order to reach the final form. Having a vision is great, but we still need to get there.

Seeing as Australia has ruled out nuclear submarines meeting operational (and political) requirements, new energy technologies such as nanotube-enhanced batteries is more crucial than a strategic octopus.

Using nanotubes in the manner you suggest isn't near-term practical. Someday, yes. But nanotube-enhanced batteries are a reality now. They are being experimented on now. How about we work on what we can do now, and the nanotubes hundreds of kilometres long will come as the technology matures?

What you were describing are unmanned underwater combat vehicles. This isn't an example "non-linear lateral applications of material science advancements". This is an example of mainstream, developmental thought. There has been open discussion about future submarines having a UUV launch and recovery system. If you look back in this thread, it has already been discussed before.

Indeed you might want to look at the Boeing LMRS. I'm sure it could be weaponised.

I would also like to point your attention to CAPTOR mines. These are encapsulated torpedo mines that can be sown in choke points or important sealanes. The torpedo is released when an acoustic signature matches one in its database. This is a static, non-networked version of your proposal. It was developed in the mid-1970's.
 

LancasterBomber

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Being aware of development reality isn't an example of being trapped by linear thinking.
Humans aren't born fully developed. Technology isn't created fully developed. Each require a series of stages that must be undertaken in order to reach the final form. Having a vision is great, but we still need to get there.

Seeing as Australia has ruled out nuclear submarines meeting operational (and political) requirements, new energy technologies such as nanotube-enhanced batteries is more crucial than a strategic octopus.

Using nanotubes in the manner you suggest isn't near-term practical. Someday, yes. But nanotube-enhanced batteries are a reality now. They are being experimented on now. How about we work on what we can do now, and the nanotubes hundreds of kilometres long will come as the technology matures?

What you were describing are unmanned underwater combat vehicles. This isn't an example "non-linear lateral applications of material science advancements". This is an example of mainstream, developmental thought. There has been open discussion about future submarines having a UUV launch and recovery system. If you look back in this thread, it has already been discussed before.

Indeed you might want to look at the Boeing LMRS. I'm sure it could be weaponised.

I would also like to point your attention to CAPTOR mines. These are encapsulated torpedo mines that can be sown in choke points or important sealanes. The torpedo is released when an acoustic signature matches one in its database. This is a static, non-networked version of your proposal. It was developed in the mid-1970's.
Clearly you have interpreted my use of your quote as a direct attack on your intellect. I can confirm it was not. I did not wish to imply you personally are entrenched in a static view of submarine development pathways but merely used your words as an example of the types of linear mindsets which seem to afflict some people in the industry (particularly those serving on existing platforms). It appears to be extremely difficult for some who are close to one platform to break away from the present to envisage future capabilities.

I have no interest at all engaging you in the semantics of what constitutes non-linear thought relative to mainstream developmental thought. Pointless.

I certainly dont lay claim to 'intellectual fatherhood' of the ideas expressed in my previous posts. There are many who have expressed ideas in this area long before I ever came along. Nor do I necessarily think they are relevent to Sea 1000. I am well aware of numerous areas of research in both carbon nanotube technologies as well as theoretical research in strategic doctrines in this area.

You will learn quickly I am not someone married to their ideas. I enjoy an open discussion. Your points are well made, logical and completely rational. Its nice to read your thoughts! :)
 

LancasterBomber

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
4 years ago I was involved with some materials science work involving titanium and ceramics, CSIRO had done some parallel development and come up with some extraordinary achievements. The irony was that what they had done had significant military implications and they were oblivious, They had licensed the tech to a German manufacturer who wanted to manage heat transference in high powered engines. What they had done however had direct implications on JSF solutions.

whats required IMO is to make sure that the civlian geeks (CSIRO) and the milgeeks (DSTO) and our coalition geek partners (DARPA, ONR, etc...) are fully informed about what we are all doing.

The fiefdoms that exist in DSTO and CSIRO are unfort legacy outcomes of a succession of Governents which expect them to have commercial nouse but do nothing to assist in helping them grow. or worse, when they score significant wins (CSIRO and wireless licensing tech), the Govt cuts their budgets but still takes the legal wins back into consolidated revenue.

pherquing small minded politicians do more damage than anyone in these circumstances.:eek:
Thanks for sharing that. :) We have had a chat about this through work channels in the past I think. We do desperately need to have a really good hard look at how we structure our interaction between 'classified' silos of information and research.

You are across this far more than I am. The key acronym mentioned above is ONR. We can (and do) talk all day long about sea 1000 and its 'capability matrix' however given the scale of the project and its social and economic impacts on the nation we should be looking at running a parallel review of our 'organisational structures'.
 
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