Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Geddy

Member
US or UK submarines? Australia hired three Americans to advise them on a big decision but won't say how much they're paying them
Interesting short article on the senate estimates hearing on the Submarine Advisory Committee and their payscales. It is interesting to note that the Chairman of Huntington Ingalls is on the committee which consists of all US members. Very useful for Australia, having the head of the company that manufactures the Virginia class advising the govt. One would think that any recommendations they come up with would be based on a solid understanding of capacity to perform the program.
Of note is the fact that there is a vacant spot on the committee. I do agree that it should be a British SME.

edit: English
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
In today's Senate Estimates, Defence has revealed that the planned large Pacific support vessel will now not be built in Australia but will be acquired from overseas. I wonder what off the shelf platform this is likely to be? Disappointing news for Henderson.

You can't build the Ships until you build the facilities to build them first.
 

Morgo

Member
It looks like the Pacific Support Ship will be hitting the water next year?

Senate estimates hearing suspended after heated argument
By Anthony Galloway
A federal senate estimates hearing has been suspended after Labor’s Penny Wong and Foreign Minister Marise Payne got into a heated argument when Defence officials revealed they had secretly dumped a plan to build a new naval ship for the Pacific.
The Morrison government announced in 2018 that it would build a large, new naval ship that will cruise the south Pacific and help Australia’s neighbours deal with natural disasters.

Labor Senator Penny Wong and Foreign Affairs Minister Marise Payne got into a heated discussion over changed plans to build a naval ship in Australia, that resulted in the hearing being suspended.

But Defence officials revealed during a Senate estimates hearing today that they would instead purchase the ship to get into the water next year.

The officials said they told the defence industry in Western Australia, where it would have been built, earlier this year. But the change of direction was never announced after the decision was taken in April.

The revelation sparked Senator Wong to ask: “Why don’t you just say ‘Yep, we made a commitment and we can’t deliver?’”
Senator Payne then responded: “It’s a very one-way street for you, Senator... You can say whatever you like, whenever you like, but you will not engage in any constructive discussion on these issues.”

“I just think the Australian people would like you to front up,” Senator Wong said.

The chair of the committee, Liberal senator Eric Abetz, then suspended the hearing.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
It looks like the Pacific Support Ship will be hitting the water next year?

Senate estimates hearing suspended after heated argument
By Anthony Galloway
A federal senate estimates hearing has been suspended after Labor’s Penny Wong and Foreign Minister Marise Payne got into a heated argument when Defence officials revealed they had secretly dumped a plan to build a new naval ship for the Pacific.
The Morrison government announced in 2018 that it would build a large, new naval ship that will cruise the south Pacific and help Australia’s neighbours deal with natural disasters.

Labor Senator Penny Wong and Foreign Affairs Minister Marise Payne got into a heated discussion over changed plans to build a naval ship in Australia, that resulted in the hearing being suspended.

But Defence officials revealed during a Senate estimates hearing today that they would instead purchase the ship to get into the water next year.

The officials said they told the defence industry in Western Australia, where it would have been built, earlier this year. But the change of direction was never announced after the decision was taken in April.

The revelation sparked Senator Wong to ask: “Why don’t you just say ‘Yep, we made a commitment and we can’t deliver?’”
Senator Payne then responded: “It’s a very one-way street for you, Senator... You can say whatever you like, whenever you like, but you will not engage in any constructive discussion on these issues.”

“I just think the Australian people would like you to front up,” Senator Wong said.

The chair of the committee, Liberal senator Eric Abetz, then suspended the hearing.
Interesting.
So this thought bubble has traction and may actually become reality.

If timing is an issue then a overseas build makes some sense.
However!
Still a lot of unanswered questions as to the ships design and hence it's capability.
How does it fit within the RAN and is this in fact the best way to spend Commonwealth dollars.

Still open to the concept but await more information.


Regards S
 

SteveR

Active Member
You can't build the Ships until you build the facilities to build them first.
And the first of class always takes way longer and costs a bundle more than when you get production of multiple units - one offs should never be built in Australia The AWD and Arafura projects (and HMAS Success back in 1980) have demonstrated that.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And the first of class always takes way longer and costs a bundle more than when you get production of multiple units - one offs should never be built in Australia The AWD and Arafura projects (and HMAS Success back in 1980) have demonstrated that.
I think you’re half right.
Success was a traumatic and long suffering build caused by our archaic labour relations and in no small part by the difficulty with the French supplied design/drawings.
The AWDs started slowly but by the time DDG 42 completed the build was successful.
All the organisational and design problems, the deliberate starving of funds by the government, we’re in the past by then. It’s a shame a fourth couldn’t capitalise on the hard won gains.
There is much discussion in this thread of these issues.
To my casual observation, the Arafura’s seem to be progressing well with few issues.
 

SteveR

Active Member
I think you’re half right.
Success was a traumatic and long suffering build caused by our archaic labour relations and in no small part by the difficulty with the French supplied design/drawings.
The AWDs started slowly but by the time DDG 42 completed the build was successful.
I know there has been much discussion but I recall HMAS Hobart was taking about 180 man hours/ton rather than the world datum of 60 hours/ton. And as you say DDG42 was built quite efficiently which is exactly my point, the first one will always take much longer but by the time you get to #3 you are matching world's best practice. There are delays on the relatively simple Arafura class:
RAN's second Arafura-class patrol vessel to be delayed by six months - Baird Maritime
 

Morgo

Member
I would imagine that Defence is looking to purchase an existing civvie vessel & modify it to our needs rather than a new build.
From Richo99's article it seems you're spot on:

The ship will go to tender early next year, with invitations to register already sent out.
 

ddxx

Member
I am not going to put too much weight on what Greg Sheridan says. The reality is that no one knows when the SSN will be in the water. I think it will be sooner rather than later but what do I know? We’ll know by March 2023.
Agreed - for an existing design with minimal changes which has been built multiple times with (at least most) problems ironed out, ~18+ years for the first boat in the water is a very long time.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Talking about the Senate Estimates Hearing its being reported the first submarine from the AUKUS deal would not be in the water until 2040, and leasing from the US and UK was not under consideration

Morrison government has ‘absolute zero’ planned for Australian defence | Sky News Australia
Sheridan knows very little about defence. He'd be lucky to be able to tell the difference between a submarine and a MRH-90. Put it this way a sailor / soldier / airman / airwoman on their first full day of recruit training knows more about Defence than Sheridan does. WRT to defence analysis and commentary he's about as useful as an electric coat hangar.

We don't hold much stock with Sheridan's ramblings because over time he has proven his ineptness at understanding defence issues and his lack of even basic knowledge WRT defence in general. Unfortunately that is a malaise that is somewhat rampant across both Australian and NZ mainstream media.
 
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