Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Think I managed to read all I missed, if I missed anything already covered over last week apologies.

At the end of the day we have one option and that is a life extension on the Collins class, with time frame as it is their was a sound argument and need for it before we started running into headaches with naval group now it is a must.

Beyond that we only have two options, evolved Collins class or continue with the attack class. My personal preference would be to contract a US yard to put together a design proposal for an evolved Collins class while finishing the design work on the attack class.

Will cost a bit more but it's an insurance if things fall apart with naval group. Collins we have experience and knowledge around so it will be the boat we can bring into service that will suite our needs quicker then anything else around.

Anything else in our timeframe is pure fantasy. Nukes are a dead end as no one has the production capacity to supply us let alone all the other technical and political requirements.

Attack class or evolved Collins, that's it.

Out of my own curiosity, what in the short term would need to be evolved on a Collins class (first block of boats hypothetically)?
 

Git_Kraken

Member
Anything else in our timeframe is pure fantasy. Nukes are a dead end as no one has the production capacity to supply us let alone all the other technical and political requirements.
Does Australia even have a domestic nuclear industry? Any nuclear power plants? Any medical isotope rectors? Research reactors? And if not then it's doubtful that Australia has even a nuclear engineering degree program. If it's the case that there is no pre-existing nuclear infrastructure of any type then nuke boats are right off the table. It would require the construction of a massive infrastructure beyond just the boats.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Does Australia even have a domestic nuclear industry? Any nuclear power plants? Any medical isotope rectors? Research reactors? And if not then it's doubtful that Australia has even a nuclear engineering degree program. If it's the case that there is no pre-existing nuclear infrastructure of any type then nuke boats are right off the table. It would require the construction of a massive infrastructure beyond just the boats.
The ANSTO facility at Lucas Heights on the outskirts of Sydney is the home of Australia’s only Reactor.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Does Australia even have a domestic nuclear industry? Any nuclear power plants? Any medical isotope rectors? Research reactors? And if not then it's doubtful that Australia has even a nuclear engineering degree program. If it's the case that there is no pre-existing nuclear infrastructure of any type then nuke boats are right off the table. It would require the construction of a massive infrastructure beyond just the boats.
@Git_Kraken

Please do some research. Even a basic Google Search will have picked up OPAL. You might want to look at SILEX and ANSTO as well. A really quick check would find that ANU have a Masters in Nuclear Science run by their nuclear physics department. Try looking at AINSE as well

AINSE – Australian Institute of Nuclear Science and Engineering
Silex - /
ANSTO | Science. Ingenuity. Sustainability

Post such as this are unacceptable noting the negative connotations you expressed based on no research. The post is lazy and adds nothing to the discussion except aggravation. I would at least expect you would make an attempt to determine what capability exists noting this has been alluded, and referred specifically to, in previous posts on this issue.

Any further ill informed commentary is likely to result in action. You have been warned.

Alexsa
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
OT…the only way any nuclear applications beyond research and medical radionuclide production happens in Australia is if climate change requires a massive reduction in greenhouse gas emissions that renewables can’t fully meet.
 

hairyman

Member
why the insistance on American aid to design a non nuclear boat, something they dont have much experience in? The only input they had to the original Collins was the weapons system, which was a lemon and had to be replaced.

@hairyman Alexsa's Red Warning in post above equally applies to you. Go read Rule #20. I won't dock you demerit points this time or record an official warning, but if you do it again it will happen.

Ngatimozart.
 
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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
why the insistance on American aid to design a non nuclear boat, something they dont have much experience in? The only input they had to the original Collins was the weapons system, which was a lemon and had to be replaced.
I would suggest doing more research as they fixed our lemon of an operating system and they also fixed the prop. While the US doesn't build diesel boats they have excellent design teams who have aided in getting several conventional submarine programs back on track.

The US has a solid record in this area so they are a natural choice. Who else would we go to anyway? Japan and Germany have boats built towards different conops as such their teams lean that way, UK hasn't been in it for almost 30 years, France ? , Spain? Again different conops and they themselves got the Americans to help fix their boats.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
OT…the only way any nuclear applications beyond research and medical radionuclide production happens in Australia is if climate change requires a massive reduction in greenhouse gas emissions that renewables can’t fully meet.

There have been a number of parliamentary studies into nuclear power over the years. PMHoward was a big believer in nuclear energy


One of the more recent studies



“Nuclear power production is currently not permitted under two main pieces of Commonwealth legislation—the Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Act 1998 (the ARPANS Act), and the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (the EPBC Act). These Acts expressly prohibit the approval, licensing, construction, or operation of a nuclear fuel fabrication plant; a nuclear power plant; an enrichment plant; or a reprocessing facility”
 
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John Newman

The Bunker Group
OT…the only way any nuclear applications beyond research and medical radionuclide production happens in Australia is if climate change requires a massive reduction in greenhouse gas emissions that renewables can’t fully meet.
Will never ever happen.

The usual cohort of green lefty tree hugging climate alarmists will never go for nuclear.

I’ve had numerous discussions over the years with people from those groups mentioned above and it just ain’t in their DNA, they would still rather more plant food in the atmosphere than ever consider going down the Nuclear path.


The poll is a pretty good guide to how people feel in regard to Nuclear Power in Australia from the respective political voting blocks:

For
59% - LNP Coalition
30% - ALP
22% - Greens

Against
34% - LNP Coalition
66% - ALP
78% - Greens

Don’t know
7% - LNP Coalition
4% - ALP
0% - Greens

As long as my arsehole continues to point to the ground I simply can’t see the various political groups, and their supporters, coming to a bipartisan consensus on Nuclear Power generation in Australia.

The logical extension of that is Nuclear submarines, that’s even further down the road.

Ain’t going to happen, never ever.

Cheers,
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Nuclear power needs to be nipped in the butt on this thread. For submarines we don't have the time, partisan support or production capacity. For civil power needs they are far too expensive and simply not needed. Between current battery tech and costs along with pumped hydro storage of which Australia has enough potential sites to meet our requirements 100 x we have no worries for power.

Let's stop this discussion here and get back to reality, cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
@Git_Kraken

Please do some research. Even a basic Google Search will have picked up OPAL. You might want to look at SILEX and ANSTO as well. A really quick check would find that ANU have a Masters in Nuclear Science run by their nuclear physics department. Try looking at AINSE as well

AINSE – Australian Institute of Nuclear Science and Engineering
Silex - /
ANSTO | Science. Ingenuity. Sustainability

Post such as this are unacceptable noting the negative connotations you expressed based on no research. The post is lazy and adds nothing to the discussion except aggravation. I would at least expect you would make an attempt to determine what capability exists noting this has been alluded, and referred specifically to, in previous posts on this issue.

Any further ill informed commentary is likely to result in action. You have been warned.

Alexsa
OPAL was built by INVAP (the Argentinean company that designed it - & some other small reactors for research & making medical isotopes & the like) under a turnkey contract, incorporating parts from Russia, France & Hungary.

Possessing such a reactor does not give you a nuclear industry.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The ANSTO facility at Lucas Heights on the outskirts of Sydney is the home of Australia’s only Reactor.
Yes - an imported small reactor for research & making medical isotopes. There are quite a few such reactors around the world.
 

Git_Kraken

Member
I was digging around and noticed that the Dutch Submarine Replacement Project (aka Walrus Replacement) has a requirement for a larger, long-range submarine in the 3000+ ton range.

The contenders have been narrowed down to three. A type 212 variant, A26 variant, and the Shortfin Barracuda.

Based on these articles Naval Group is crowing their IP transfer chops. It might just be glossy brochure stuff but I'm happy to be wrong about Naval Group and whatever sticking point Australia has with them regarding the contract.

I also mention this here (as it's Dutch news) as the other options Australia might be considering to put the squeeze on Naval Group would likely be similar if not the same as for the Walrus Replacement competition.

Of course, if Naval Group wins the contract, then there becomes a friendly country that operates the same submarine. No longer would Australia's submarine be an orphan class. (of course one could argue the Barracuda and Shortfin are in the same family).

It would be nice to see O-boat information sharing return.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Assuming good progress in Australia and if they manage a Dutch order, this would certainly enhance their chances for a future RCN order providing Canada isn’t bankrupt by 2035.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ADF was (eventually) asked if they were conducting studies on a TKMS boat last week at Senate Estimate and CoN said no. They also denied studying the Kockums offering and the Dutch submarine program or reaching out to the Dutch Navy on submarine matters, beyond officer training.

But they are actively studying a whole range of undersea warfare capability options for Australia which are all so highly classified, they aren‘t even allowed to talk openly about what broad strokes types of undersea warfare they are studying…
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
OPAL was built by INVAP (the Argentinean company that designed it - & some other small reactors for research & making medical isotopes & the like) under a turnkey contract, incorporating parts from Russia, France & Hungary.

Possessing such a reactor does not give you a nuclear industry.
No argument there. The suggestion that research be done was in response to the original post which suggested zero capability .... including having any medical Isotope reactors and research reactors. Which was fundamentally wrong and a small amount of research would have found that.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I thought I'd share this Pic


Royal Brunei Navy ship KDB Darulehsan is similar to our future Arafura Class OPV sailing in company with our ANZAC Class frigate HMAS Parramatta .

While our Arafura Class will have some differences in fit out of weapons and sensors, the basic design will look the same.
As a visual we can expect to see this sight in Australian waters in the not to distant future.

Hopefully Nuship Arafura will still be launched Q4 this year with commissioning in 2022.


Regards S
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Submarines aren't the only game in town when it comes to Australia's undersea capabilities. Australia will also be investing in an Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (SEA 5012).


UUVs could be a more cost effective method of conducting surveillance of Australia’s maritime approaches regardless of the availability of manned subs. As of yet nobody really understands the full capabilities of unmanned systems or what further roles and missions could be carried out by these platforms. Any delays in the delivery of new manned submarines may result in an accelerated development of unmanned systems to fill any capability gaps and act as force multipliers by teaming with our current subs.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
At the moment in regards to unmanned submarines I think people are jumping to far ahead.

While I don't doubt they will one day play an important role their are physical limitations to their use primarily that if you want to truly benefit from them you need to have a long range deep water communication ability which simply does not exist. They either have to be close to a mother ship, connected via a long a** cable or operate very close to the surface. None of this stops them being of use but it severely impacts how much use they will be.

Realistically baring some amazing breakthrough in communication tech able to operate at thousands of km's and several hundred metres in depth the unmanned submarine will need to operate via an AI, potentially one more advanced then we have ever developed to date.

Outside of extending sonar range or utilising them for active sonar with out threatening the mother ship their use will be limited for decades to come.

Let's look at them, hell let's even join in on some of the programs but they won't be filling any roles performed by our submarines anytime soon.
 
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