Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[MrConservative]

Well I don't like Dutton either, but it doesn't mean that I am going to dump on the ADF just because of who the Minister may be. This just shows the immaturity of the of the ALP and the media people. They're acting like a bunch of spoilt toddlers.

They are not acting NG. They media are a bunch of spoilt toddlers. I hope the RAN tightens up its image management after HMAS Supply episode to avoid what happened from happening again. Particularly if they are justing going to be fodder for the media to target the Minister.

 

[spoz]

It’s certainly a non story except for the lack of judgement shown by whoever put the ceremony together. Problem is, the whole of Australia knows about - 3 of my neighbours who have no connection to, or real interest in, Defence asked me about it yesterday so it’s at least a 7 day wonder. Good thing is they all seemed to regard it as a joke, if silly of Navy to allow it to happen and It looks like most of Australia (a few real loonies apart) thinks the same. Who the actual audience who saw it was is irrelevant, it’s not something that should have been part of a commissioning ceremony; but nor is it any form of major disaster.

 

[ngatimozart]

It’s certainly a non story except for the lack of judgement shown by whoever put the ceremony together. Problem is, the whole of Australia knows about - 3 of my neighbours who have no connection to, or real interest in, Defence asked me about it yesterday so it’s at least a 7 day wonder. Good thing is they all seemed to regard it as a joke, if silly of Navy to allow it to happen and It looks like most of Australia (a few real loonies apart) thinks the same. Who the actual audience who saw it was is irrelevant, it’s not something that should have been part of a commissioning ceremony; but nor is it any form of major disaster.

Probably organised by the stokers senior rates mess. That'd be something up their alley. If it was the seaman gunners mess who organised it, the girls would not have been so over dressed.

 

[Flexson]

Probably organised by the stokers senior rates mess. That'd be something up their alley. If it was the seaman gunners mess who organised it, the girls would not have been so over dressed.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Leave my mess mates and myself out of it, we were as confused by wtf was happening as the rest of ships company! .... lol

 

[StingrayOZ]

This whole thing is generally seen as pretty funny domestically. The biggest fallout so far was the ABC getting caught doing dodgy editing. Then we had to put up with Karl Stefanoic twerking on the morning news. Criticizing the dances is seen has misogynistic, which of course in the current times people want to avoid. Its getting a lot of international attention now, as a generic funny news story.

That said, the author advocates 6 diesel Attack class SSGs followed by 6 SSN's. If we were to go the nuclear route, this strikes me (a layman) as possibly a more reasonable path to get there in that it would buy us time to establish the needed support base. Will leave the finer details to the pros...

While possible, its not as easy as it seems.

Building and operating and decommissioning nuclear submarines is a time consuming and expensive business. AFAIK only one Navy globally actually has a proper decommissioning system for nuclear submarines. The UK hasn't even completely recycled any of its nuclear submarines, and Russia is an example of what not to do. If we want to build capability quickly, conventionals are the way forward. While China is building nuclear submarines, their nuclear program has been dramatically less successful than their conventional program.

What is the aim anyway? 20kt transits? Attack class looks to be approximately as fast on its transits as Barracuda. Being submerged for a few weeks is no longer a problem for conventionals either and underwater endurance is increasing at an extremely high rate. While in defence you want the best gear, you can also win by making the other side spend too much, on units that are too expensive, to slow to produce and take too long to develop.

While the Attack is similar to the Barracuda, its not the same. Going nuclear would basically be another class again. However, both France and Brazil are working on reactors for Barracuda type subs. France has put a lot of effort into making nuclear power more sustainable and affordable, not based of nuclear weapon fuel lines, and using low cost LEU. That would be more attractive.

 

[Morgo]

This whole thing is generally seen as pretty funny domestically. The biggest fallout so far was the ABC getting caught doing dodgy editing. Then we had to put up with Karl Stefanoic twerking on the morning news. Criticizing the dances is seen has misogynistic, which of course in the current times people want to avoid. Its getting a lot of international attention now, as a generic funny news story.

One interesting (but if I'm honest less entertaining) side show to the commissioning was the use of White Bay as an overflow by the RAN. During the commissioning HMAS Canberra was moved around to the other side of the bridge, and was then swapped back with the newly minted HMAS Supply - which is still parked there and has been for the past week.

The NSW State Gov's "Bays West Redevelopment Plan" looks to be likely to result in a Barangaroo type development. I'm not going to comment one way or the other on the broader merits of that plan, but it struck me that the proposed retention of at least some of the piers which currently could simultaneously house both Canberras and Supply at once and which is centrally located right next to what will probably be the biggest intersection in our biggest city is a significant piece of contingent Defence infrastructure. I hope that this doesn't get diminished by apartment blocks build right up to the water (which it probably will).

I'm not sure if Defence is putting their two cents into this conversation, but I certainly hope so.

Link to the plan here: Bays West draft Place Strategy | Planning Portal - Department of Planning and Environment

 

[Albedo]

Lockheed Martin and Thales Team Up for LRASM Surface Launch Variant - Naval News

Lockheed Martin and Thales Australia have finalized a teaming agreement advancing the delivery of an Australian guided weapons manufacturing capability in support of a sovereign national guided weapons enterprise.

www.navalnews.com

Lockheed Martin and Thales Australia are working together to develop a surface launched LRASM. No details on whether this is for the Mk 41 or as boxed deck launchers. It'll be great to have a stealthy counterpart to the Block Va Maritime Strike Tomahawk. Since the LRASM is several times more expensive than the Tomahawk I'm guessing they'll be complementary rather than a direct replacement with Tomahawk staying around for use on lightly defended targets.

EDIT: Sorry, I did not see that a similar article was already posted in the thread below.

ADF General discussion thread

Re the comparison of numbers: Israel's armed forces are very powerful, but local. Most of the air force's transport aircraft are old. Its tankers are very old, secondhand Boeing 707s & some KC-130H. It would now be converting ex-airline 767s if Boeing hadn't refused to sell spares or provide...

www.defencetalk.com

 

[ngatimozart]

Lockheed Martin and Thales Team Up for LRASM Surface Launch Variant - Naval News

Lockheed Martin and Thales Australia have finalized a teaming agreement advancing the delivery of an Australian guided weapons manufacturing capability in support of a sovereign national guided weapons enterprise.

www.navalnews.com

Lockheed Martin and Thales Australia are working together to develop a surface launched LRASM. No details on whether this is for the Mk 41 or as boxed deck launchers. It'll be great to have a stealthy counterpart to the Block Va Maritime Strike Tomahawk. Since the LRASM is several times more expensive than the Tomahawk I'm guessing they'll be complementary rather than a direct replacement with Tomahawk staying around for use on lightly defended targets.

EDIT: Sorry, I did not see that a similar article was already posted in the thread below.

ADF General discussion thread

Re the comparison of numbers: Israel's armed forces are very powerful, but local. Most of the air force's transport aircraft are old. Its tankers are very old, secondhand Boeing 707s & some KC-130H. It would now be converting ex-airline 767s if Boeing hadn't refused to sell spares or provide...

www.defencetalk.com

LockMart have done some work on a Mk-41 VLS launch capability for the LRASM.

 

[Boagrius]

Yep, they also tested a topside canister launcher a while back.

Lockheed Martin Demonstrates LRASM Launch Capability from Topside Canister

Lockheed Martin Demonstrates LRASM Launch Capability from Topside Canister

www.navyrecognition.com

As I've argued here before, this could be attractive so as to conserve scarce VLS cells, saving them for SAMs, Tomahawks or additional LRASMs.

 

[Redlands18]

Also been posted on the USN Thread that the USN has ordered the LRASM to be integrated into the P-8, can’t see Australia as a development partner not following suit.

 

[Boagrius]

Agreed. Would be interesting to know how many LRASMs a P8 could carry. The combo seems like a no-brainer...

 

[DDG38]

HMAS Ballarat's MH-60R dips it's sonar in the search for KRI Nanggala. Image source ADF image library (link)

 

[Stampede]

An article of interest about the RAN's Arafura Class by Dr Laird from the Williams Foundation

An Update on the Next Generation Australian OPV: March 2021 - Second Line of Defense

A year ago, I was in Australia and working on my Australian OPV report. I visited Western Australia and then returned to Canberra to discuss the acquisition with a number of DoD officials. That report highlighted how the new-build OPV set in motion the new shipbuilding strategy for Australia...

sldinfo.com

A rather extensive work.

This quote on the last page is interesting.

"The new build Australian OPV is not just a replacement program; it is a down payment on the evolution of the next generation of crisis management capabilities.

Worth a look



Regards S

 

[ngatimozart]

An article of interest about the RAN's Arafura Class by Dr Laird from the Williams Foundation

An Update on the Next Generation Australian OPV: March 2021 - Second Line of Defense

A year ago, I was in Australia and working on my Australian OPV report. I visited Western Australia and then returned to Canberra to discuss the acquisition with a number of DoD officials. That report highlighted how the new-build OPV set in motion the new shipbuilding strategy for Australia...

sldinfo.com

A rather extensive work.

This quote on the last page is interesting.

"The new build Australian OPV is not just a replacement program; it is a down payment on the evolution of the next generation of crisis management capabilities.

Worth a look



Regards S

Yep I read that and I think I have a copy of the original report. I like Dr Lairds material because he writes with an open mind.

 

[Bob53]

Their primary role is Border protection and Constabulary and they carry Guns for the same reasons your Police do. To stop people from committing serious Crimes and Terrorist acts. They need to be able to provide covering fire when your people board suspicious Vessels. Our Sailors do go in harms way every time they have to board an unknown Vessel, not knowing if there are heavily armed persons on board or if its full of explosives. Aiming a turreted 40mm Gun at the suspect Vessel is a very persuasive way to make them cooperative.

And I don't disagree. My point was the jump to the 57mm with those capabilities seemed a significant and worthwhile increase in capability if it was cost effective. I go pig shooting a bit. I've got a trusted 30/30 but nearly always take the .308 because it has the bit more stopping power and range is not even comparable. It's still just a gun but a lot more capable. Same principle at play with this opinion.

 

[Gryphinator]

An article of interest about the RAN's Arafura Class by Dr Laird from the Williams Foundation

An Update on the Next Generation Australian OPV: March 2021 - Second Line of Defense

A year ago, I was in Australia and working on my Australian OPV report. I visited Western Australia and then returned to Canberra to discuss the acquisition with a number of DoD officials. That report highlighted how the new-build OPV set in motion the new shipbuilding strategy for Australia...

sldinfo.com

A rather extensive work.

This quote on the last page is interesting.

"The new build Australian OPV is not just a replacement program; it is a down payment on the evolution of the next generation of crisis management capabilities.

Worth a look



Regards S

I started to read this yesterday but children (and Anzac breakfast beers!) made me stop. Does it address the deliberate weakening of the helo deck?
Cheers

 

[Stampede]

I started to read this yesterday but children (and Anzac breakfast beers!) made me stop. Does it address the deliberate weakening of the helo deck?
Cheers

I did not pickup that issue within the article.
If I recall, Kym Bergmann from APDR mentioned that the flight deck from ship 4 onwards would be fixed to accommodate a medium sized helicopter, with the first three of the Class retro fitted down the track.
Still seeking if that reality is true or not.

Any assistance would be welcomed


Regards S

 

[oldsig127]

I started to read this yesterday but children (and Anzac breakfast beers!) made me stop. Does it address the deliberate weakening of the helo deck?
Cheers

I read the lot, and allowing for my dodgy memory it did not. Nor should it. It's not about the Arafura class.
The article was essentially platform neutral , except that it discussed in detail the way the Arafura class is being used to move naval shipbuilding in Australia into a mode which will more tightly coordinate the effort of Defence, designers, primes,sub contractors , suppliers and users to build for required outcomes with the flexibility to evolve the product and inputs as situations change.

Platform *neutral* but it means that for example, Arafura, they can coordinate the entire chain to alter the flight deck, or the gun, or the CMS without needing to start with a contract to build 12 ships to xyz spec at a cost of abc dollars - and then spend years fighting over variations.

Read it. It makes a great deal of sense in an age where what we think we need today may be a crock of manure next year

Oldsig

 

[Volkodav]

And I don't disagree. My point was the jump to the 57mm with those capabilities seemed a significant and worthwhile increase in capability if it was cost effective. I go pig shooting a bit. I've got a trusted 30/30 but nearly always take the .308 because it has the bit more stopping power and range is not even comparable. It's still just a gun but a lot more capable. Same principle at play with this opinion.

The advantage the larger calibres have is guided / course corrected projectiles improving their air defence as well as potentially providing a stand off CIWS capability. Initially this was seen in 76mm but BAE is offering / working on 57mm options. I do not doubt it will eventually be seen in smaller calibres as well.

 

[ngatimozart]

I started to read this yesterday but children (and Anzac breakfast beers!) made me stop. Does it address the deliberate weakening of the helo deck?
Cheers

No it doesn't. That wasn't the intention of the article. It was as Oldsig127 said. You should read the article again without the distractions because it is worth it.