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Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by icelord, Feb 13, 2007.

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  1. vonnoobie

    vonnoobie Active Member

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    Oh don't get me wrong I think Australia building large ships is a non starter. Too late in the game at a time when every one around us is growing in capability and lower cost base. Theoretically it could be done and even made profitable if not break even but would take a lot of planning and work between a large number of different parties and in the real world that is a 1 in a million shot.

    I think the best we can hope for is to build up a refit/repair capability for large ships rather then outright production. We wont be building our own ships but we will be better able to sustain them (Bloody difficult around Sydney with the cruise ships) and will give the USN a good site to use along with civilian industry. That we can make to work with a more limited outlay and less risk.
     
  2. spoz

    spoz Active Member

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    The normal way of carrying mexeflotes in ships without well decks is strapped to the side of the hull, as was seen with the RFA LSLs. Given the prime purpose of an AOR is RAS by the alongside method, there might be a conflict. Possibly could be carried on the container space, but that would probably be at the expense of CONEXs, again likely undesirable. Replacing one of the boats with an LCVP, as was done with Success, would seem a more practical solution, albeit one without as much capacity to land gear.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  3. alexsa

    alexsa Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    But they are starting prototyping blocks in 2020 inorder to get the line running. This may not mean that the line could not be used to cut plat for other projects I just do see the line doing block consilidation if this interferes with the Hunter class. The isuse is we do not know wiht certainty what the lines capability is.
     
  4. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    Block consolidation may not be a bad way to go to get Henderson up and running and have block consolidation and final fitout at Osborne. Given the current wrangling around submarine support its not clear how exactly this will all fit together. It may be worth planning to have Osborne capable of significant block consolidation and maintenance.

    For those not reading the papers etc:
    WA fury over submarine maintenance

    So $98 billion for WA now? Here we go.

    Defence Connect

    Rather than states, federal ministers and companies tear each other apart. I would rather see additional orders as a conciliatory measure. There are still things the ADF and the commonwealth needs. A lot of these cases its about ensuring sustainability of workforces and bridging peaks in workforce requirements, particularly now things are much more detailed in the planning stages and areas identified. In cases where its about bridging workforce peaks and toughs, actual labor costs are mitigated where not doing anything is more damaging than ordering something (how many times have we seen this locally and internationally). There are some magical mystical things like the Pacific ship where there is a need for something significant, but no reality of what that is. Rather than a single magical ship, it may be worthwhile to look at a fleet of smaller ships to perform those type of capabilities.

    A small AOR/tender operating out of Lombrum might be a significant force multiplier on ships and subs doing long transits. Being able to resupply smaller allied/friendly ships (Corvettes/OPV's/small frigates/subs think Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia) in or around SEA might be a very handy capability to offer and doesn't interfere with our major AOR fleet. We have a capability hole where the heavy landing craft used to be, something smaller that can be forward deployed other than a LHD/LPD has been mentioned multiple times. After 10 years it might be possible to gift some of these around the region, where we can provide conops/training/logistics support etc. The small AOR for example could be gifted to PNG, and Australia and others simply pay operational usage. The Philippines could be offered a similar deal. Maybe work out a schedule with the US/AU/JP/SK/UK to regularly utilise this capability, which is less of a political statement than a port visit, and during conflicts would provide a significant amount of operational flexibility. On top of this these type of ships could perform OPV/presence type duties.

    By increasing the drum beat, finding efficiencies, we lower the costs of the entire ship building industry. In the current environment the government is desperate for infrastructure and government spending programs as ways to boost GDP and keep unemployment steady (and is advised by the RBA to do this as interest rates no longer are effective controls). It would seem perhaps an optional plan to expand shipbuilding capabilities in a useful, low cost and practical way, while having additional programs "Ready to go" would seem to be a fairly smart move.
     
  5. MickB

    MickB Active Member

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    Article on RN forum about FLSS.
    Sounds very much like the description of the proposed Pacific Ship. If perhaps larger in size and scope that most envisage the Pacific Ship to be.

    Savings through economy of scale may make it worth the RAN joining this program.
    At least the R & D side may help towards designing the Pacific Ship and its mission.
    Certainly a program to watch.
     
  6. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    The new Supply ships are primarily fleet support units and i can’t see them being sent on any major HADR mission by themselves.
    On minor HADR duties their primary shore connectors will be helicopters.
    Equipping them with mexeflotes would unnecessarily complicate their role even if they were capable of deploying them without modification and I believe it’s an idea without merit, IMHO naturally.
     
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  7. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    There used to be (1960s - 1980s) a tank farm/bulk fuel facility at Lombrum where destroyers and frigates would refuel during long transits such as Sydney to Subic.
    Does anyone here know of its current status?
     
  8. FoxtrotRomeo999

    FoxtrotRomeo999 Member

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    Current Status is it is still there and getting improved over time.

    • Lombrun Naval Base = Manus Island = HMPNGS Tarangau It is referred to by a couple of names.
    Lombrum is the home port of the PNGDF's Pacific-class patrol boat force. So there is something already there.

    The roles of the Patrol Boat Base are:
    • To ensure that all Patrol Boats of the PNGDF and allocated support craft are ready in all respects to meet their operational commitment.
    • To provide port facilities for PNGDF ships, PNG Government of commercial vessels and, as required for warships of other nations visiting Lombrum as agreed by the PNG Government;
    • To provide for local administration with the Lombrum area.
    • To conduct; Seamen specialist training, pre sea and continuation training; and on the job training for tradesman allocated to the Maritime discipline.
    • To provide for on the spot replacement of Patrol Boat crewmen in conjunction with HQ PNGDF.
    • To provide technical support for Patrol Boats up to and including Assisted Maintenance Periods (AMPs) and maintain a capacity for replacement of major components as required.
    • To control technical administration of Patrol Boats for all aspects including preparation of main defect lists and conduct of Planned Maintenance.
    Our PM announcing joint initiative on Lombrun in 2018 "And today, it’s my privilege to announce that the United States will partner with Papua New Guinea and Australia on their joint initiative at Lombrum Naval Base on Manus Island. (Applause.) We will work with these nations to protect sovereignty and maritime rights of the Pacific Islands as well." And it is being improved.

     
  9. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    Last I heard Lombrum was in a pretty bad state of disrepair, as in knock everything down and start again. Government is regularly issuing tenders for upgrades currently. Last one I saw including things like fencing and a guard house, so I would assume the tank farm would be in need of replacement/upgrade after other areas are upgraded. Its not like part of the facility PNG would be throwing mega bucks at it, most of that stuff was built in WW2. In the mid 80's everything was basically relocated back to Port Morsby and it was just a FOB, which really didn't need significant resupply capability.

    We can’t risk a strategic sham on Manus | The Strategist
    The ASPI link has bit on what is going on at Manus. It mentions fuel and oil upgrades.

    We may need a smallish tender for Lombrum anyway, for supplies, remove wastes, while that could be contract commercially, its not like PNG has loads of that kind of gear for a naval base. Something with the capability to improve sewerage, waste handling, resupply in the region I am sure would get plenty of support. A small tender and amphibious ship operating out of Lombrum I think would be ideal for a pacific focus. Smaller ships will be better able to visit smaller ports, and multiple small ships would be better than one massive one. Such smaller ships would be able to take advantage of the warf upgrade which is optimized for smaller ships. Christmas Island is also visited by ships of similar size, could be useful for resupply out of Christmas island which again is probably not ideal for a 20,000t AOR to operate out of. The idea of Submarine tenders might be a thing to look at given our investment in subs and operating them at long range.
     
  10. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Thanks mate, that ASPI link categorically states that there is no bunker facility at all, even the PNG boats go to Madang or Rabaul to fuel.

    OTOH Christmas Island has no wharf at all which is suitable or could be made suitable for even minor war vessels. The swell at the jetty can be horrendous, the depth rises steeply from hundreds of metres to nothing in less than 50 mtrs so totally useless
    I once refuelled an Attack class (draft 1.7 mtrs) in Flying Fish Cove by laying out an anchor and backing up stern to near the small jetty in range of the fuel hose. With a small swell at the time I had a diver in the water checking the depth between props and rock continually, a very dicky operation indeed, never want a repeat but it was a necessity at the time.
     
  11. Milne Bay

    Milne Bay Active Member

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    Can't find the last mention of the Collins submarine maintenance work being moved to WA, but it would appear that it will be a major blunder from a skills loss point of view and would probably impact on the ASC Adelaide workforce quite severely.
    Here is a link to the breaking news story:
    ASC report reveals risks of moving Collins Class submarine maintenance work - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
    ASC report reveals risks of moving submarine maintenance work to WA
    MB
     
  12. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    It’s that serial pest Rex Patrick attention seeking yet again.
     
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  13. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    Thanks Assail
    .
    Probably best to get up to speed with these new ships primary role without adding bits and creative expectation.
    Anyway, one I'll keep an eye on to see how they perform and how they are employed.

    Cheers


    regards S
     
  14. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    If it was feasible, I would suggest one would not want to impose on the existing deck space and use that area for its current purpose.
    Yes they would have to be attached to the sides.
    Is it feasible and would it restrict the ships ability to carry our refuelling of other ships alongside, I cannot say.
    So it's wishfull thinking on my behalf.
    Maybe we should observe how the Canadians employ this capability with their new Berlin class supply ships and see if the concept has scope for the RAN.

    Thanks and regards S
     
  15. John Newman

    John Newman Well-Known Member

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    Whenever I see 'ABC' and 'Rex Patrick' mentioned together I start to glaze over... both a waste of taxpayer dollars.

    If I remember correctly, Patrick is one of those 'backdoor' Senators, not actually voted for or elected, but filled Xenophon's seat when he pulled the pin. Come the next election he'll probably be gone.

    Cheers,

    PS, I hear he was born across the ditch in Kiwiland, explains a lot! Ha ha!
     
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  16. aussienscale

    aussienscale Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    LOL, when I saw the ABC and Rex mentioned in the same sentence I didn't even click on the link !!
     
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  17. Milne Bay

    Milne Bay Active Member

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  18. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Off course there’s risk in moving full cycle dockings to WA but ASC has to decide whether they have the capacity at Osborne to continue concurrent with the Attack build. I’m assuming there will be huge demand on a stretched workforce.
    Surely though this is a question for the company to decide, not Federal or State politicians and most certainly not Rex Patrick or the ABC

    In future there will also be sustainment for the Attacks, maybe when that eventuates it might be prudent to have the remaining Collins refit in Perth?
     
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  19. John Newman

    John Newman Well-Known Member

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    The sustainment of the Collins class through to retirement is important, and is not a joke.

    What is a joke is the standard of reporting by the ABC, especially Defence reporting (the ABC and most media outlets have NFI when it comes to accuracy), and Patrick is a joke, a self serving pollie trying to make a name for himself in SA, his 'big shock horror' announcements are usually from selected cherry picking paragraphs from reports/documents that he has obtained using FOI.

    Have you got a link to this very secret draft ASC report? I don't, If you do, post a link please.


    A reasonable report, a fairly balanced report, is this ASPI report from October 2018:

    Thinking through submarine transition

    Below is the 46 page PDF linked to the above page:

    https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/ad-aspi/2018-10/SR 128 Thinking through sub transition.pdf?hBI2AIjcgfCmWfgSWQTwaTl5fiQoCgkm

    Cheers,
     
  20. alexsa

    alexsa Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Actually I don’t agree that T26 blocks should move. The yard is designed to be efficient with all building on site. It may be able to cut plate for other projects (using the DDG facility perhaps) but I would not muck around with the integrated process that is planned