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Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by icelord, Feb 13, 2007.

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  1. oldsig127

    oldsig127 Active Member

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    This is not actually news; it's been discussed on here before repeatedly. It's just another beat up; necessary to fill column inches and air time now that the election is done. And *money* is not the issue, it's there. The problem is recruiting and training enough personnel to meet the numbers that have been funded and the considerable problem that you can't recruit a clever young Aussie today and give him or her 10 years of experience in one year of training.

    And yes, Army and Airforce have the same issues. Money to spend on crew, but not enough recruits and the long term effect of losing the skilled backbone of technical and specialist positions to impossibly higher paid civvy positions. Throwing more money at this would be simply pissing it against a tree - it's a problem shared by virtually every nation that allows their people to choose to serve or otherwise

    oldsig
     
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  2. seaspear

    seaspear Member

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    If bodies like AMRL and DSTO are involved into the rearch and development of these craft that can take years to come to fruition they dont usually publicise what they are doing , but the incoming Hunter class do have a mission bay that would be suitable for such deployments
     
  3. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    Efficient crewing will be required for the future.

    Its not just a money problem. Defence isn't an ideal career when you hit your 30's and want to have a family and buy a house and all those other things. Men and women. Has always been an issue, for hundreds of years, but while 50 years ago, having a military wife who stayed at home or on base and looked after the family was somewhat possible, that isn't really the case. Particularly because these days both parents work, both could be in the service. Having both sexes in the service has probably increase the likely hood of people finding a partner who also works in defense.

    I know a few who have left the service and tried to get flexible type jobs while their female partner stays in the service. One guy runs a gunshop out of a industrial unit after he left the Army his wife still in the airforce. He can base the shops hours around his availability and has select clients, including the ADF and ADF personnel. He would probably love to still be in the ADF, but that just really isn't possible.

    Those who are in their 30's also tend to get worried about finding a partner. So often look at moving out to "have a life".

    Navy can be even harder. It isn't perhaps as straight forward to adapt around that.

    So keeping those experienced navy/army/airforce people who are in their 30's, are vitally important, but don't have some high ranking/pay/power/flexibility officer job are very hard to retain. Trades are almost impossible, because a lot can walk out and start their own business or retrain quickly and do it. Have more flexibility, stability and probably same or better money.

    Maybe some sort of advanced reserve job share type system. But also, just because they aren't available today, doesn't mean in near wartime that will be the same case. You are still going to need the platform, you can't just whip one up in a jiffy.
     
  4. Volkodav

    Volkodav Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    The shortages causing the most pain are technically competent junior members, i.e. those qualified and capable of doing their jobs with minimal supervision but still very much on the tools. These people mostly are in their mid to late 20s, or early 30s have several years in service, are fully qualified in their trades, generally have done some promotion courses, but also a lot are starting families and thinking about alternative careers.

    In the past there have been retention bonuses etc. with varying degrees of success but with unforseen side effects, i.e. creating dissatisfaction in more senior members who end up being on less money than their less qualified, less experienced subordinates.

    One issue defence has is the lack of lateral recruitment, especially for technical trades, making them almost totally reliant on the people they grow themselves. Even when accepting people from allied militaries they force them to take massive drops in rank, ie WO2 to Corporal, same applies to personnel transferring service RAEME SGT dropping to Ordinary Seaman. (Ironically a corps transfer in army I know of non technical SGTs retaining their rank while doing technical training and being posted to more senior appointments than more technically qualified and experienced soldiers).

    Civilians, no matter their qualifications or experience, hence value to defence, have to start at the bottom and spend years redoing things they have already done before they finally reach the level they were at before joining. By the time they get to use the skills they brought to defence they haven't used them in years.

    There have been suggestions that the ADF look at reintroducing PO/SGT entry for qualified tradespeople. Great if it happens as they are being employed for their technical skills, not their military experience, the ADF are very good at training people in military skills. Another thought is there is also a shortage of higher level technical personnel, these are the CPO, FLT SGT, WO level, the Articifers. Their sub 4 training (I believe) facilitates Chartered TO Status with Engineers Australia, so why not equate this with providing the possibility of appointing suitably qualified civilians as Articifers with appropriate rank. Possibly also consider the appointment of qualified / certified LAMEs, Marine Engineers, Senior Technical Officers as para professional Special Service Officers, as is done for some pilots, as well as doctors, nurses, lawyers, some engineers, Chaplains etc. Officers being paid to turn spanners may face some resistance though.
     
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  5. MickB

    MickB Member

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    I think I can safely assume that there dozens of foreign warships visiting Australia every year.

    I have yet to see a P M call a press conference to announce any of these other visits so why do they expect it now.This whole thing leaves me at a loss to explain the total media hysteria about the recent port call by the PLAN.

    Prior notice to the public is mostly for vessels open for inspection. Or of course the USN putting out a call to friendly young ladies.
     
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  6. swerve

    swerve Super Moderator

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    Bit of a mistake there, I'm afraid. The Wannsee Conference wasn't to decide on policy, but to rationalise & improve the execution of the policy which was already in place, & already being carried out.

    It was about the difficulties that had arisen in mass murder of Jews, how it was physically difficult, messy, & distressing to those doing it, & how to improve the process.The mechanical aspects, not the policy itself. The implementation of that, the final solution, had begun in Poland in late 1939, & accelerated through 1940 & 1941.

    The Hunger Plan, which envisaged starving to death tens of millions of mostly urban Soviet citizens (rural people were seen as needed to produce food, at least for the time being) in order to ensure there was plenty of food for Germans, was decided in outline by the beginning of May 1941, shortly before the invasion of the USSR.

    Nazi Germany was truly nasty as soon as it thought it could get away with it, & that was as soon as it ruled territories closed to foreign visitors who might see what was going on - i.e. September 1939.
     
  7. hauritz

    hauritz Well-Known Member

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    This never occurred to me before but it is madness. Imagine if the private sector tried to run their businesses like this?

    All they would be doing is hiring entry level staff which they would have to then invest enormous amounts of time and money on only to see most of them eventually poached by another company. It would be an absolutely terrible business model doomed to failure.
     
  8. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    A mistake made by many pollies, govt bureaucrats, media and many civilians, that militaries are like other govt departments, can operate on a business model, having similar metrics, KPIs and outputs. How do you measure your output? The number of enemy dead? Well Gen Westmoreland did that in Vietnam, boasting about how many VC killed each day / week, and still lost the war. They only metric that counts in the end is win, lose or draw. Ask the Duke of Wellington and Napoleon, or Winston Churchill and Adolf Hitler. Yes outputs do have to be measured in order that funds have to be accounted for to ensure that they are not wasted and KPIs should be measured, but the difficult part is defining what those KPIs and outputs should be, and they certainly cannot be defined by a business model which is built a profit motive.
     
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  9. seaspear

    seaspear Member

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    I know this gets way off the thread but I can recall reading of an exchange between American and Soviet leaders on the use of penal battalions for mine clearance with the Soviet general arguing it saved time time doing this rather than conventional mine clearance methods
    this article provides the scale of the use of penal battalions and perhaps the mindset

    Shtrafbat - Wikipedia
     
  10. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    What are you suggesting?
     
  11. seaspear

    seaspear Member

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    The soviet army in this case was prepared to overun nazi lines at any cost including ther use of the penal battalions to detonate the mine fields ,the marshalls were under extreme pressure of penalty to perform
    Bonaparte I beleive was stated to say he had an allowance of one hundred thousand men a year ,certainly the trench warfare of ww1 measured suceess for a few hundred yards of field no matter the cost of life , a rather brutal kpi
     
  12. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    This is getting rather divorced from the thread topic, namely the Royal Australian Navy, which I suspect might be what the Mod was getting at, at least in part.
     
  13. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    The continuing drama of the Chinese ships.
    So they had a live fire off the the WA coast.. Apparently in the middle of the indian ocean is off the WA coast.
    https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/chinese-navy-boasts-of-live-fire-exercise-off-wa-ng-b881223562z

    I see the Chinese ships are leaving, apparently with the precious load of baby formula and face masks.

    Chinese warships load up Australian baby formula

    Showing the high tensions of the situation.

    Pretty sure some officers get shore leave. They certainly did back in 2013. They were interested in all the tourist type things, the rocks historic area, the opera house, touristy type shops etc.

    I am assuming in NZ, with so many face masks and milk products around it would have been too much to allow them shore leave. Or maybe they were fearful of bringing inferior NZ baby formula back.

    Wonder if in future visits they will have to put out a call to supermarkets to increase stock levels of this valuable white powder.
    I believe Frank Herbert said it best. "He who controls the milk powder, controls the universe"
     
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  14. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Yep, define "off a coast". Is it 3 nm, 12 nm, 200 nm? It's quite a subjective term and to a back bench pollie and the MSM, off the coast of WA could mean 100 nm due east of South Africa. Some officers probably get shore shore leave but the average sailor doesn't from the looks of it. Here in NZ the supermarkets instituted controls on how much milk each person could purchase per person. Don't know if they still enforce it. Ah, but milk powder doesn't give you the deep blue eyes of the desert dwelling Fremen.
     
  15. seaspear

    seaspear Member

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    re the visit of foreign ships should Australia decline these visits would we be upset if the R.A.N was excluded from visitis to say Hong kong and mainland China
    Possibly the most interesting part of the visit was the amount of products brought back to the ship was this bought as an investment speculation by officers or on behalf of someone and organised by the embassy in a short time for a large amount of product to make a profit using the navy as a means of transport not a corrupt practice of course , all above board lol
     
  16. SteveR

    SteveR Active Member

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    The Ghettos in Poland had started back in 1939 but their movement to the industrial scale deaths camps,started later. In any case my point is that Mao and his henchmen were the worst mass murderers in the last century and yet we still see his face on banners and Chinese bank notes.

    My major enlightenment was reading The Gulag Archipelago where Solzhenitsyn (a decorated Red Army officer) was finally confronted with what was happening out of sight in the Gulags and even older inmates, who remembered the Tzars Okhrana, told him how much worse the Communist methods were. Mao was certainly no better and Khmer Rouge as his apprentices proceeded to wipe out about 1/3 of the Khmer population..
     
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  17. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    Always important to engage and talk.
    Of particular interest is the appearance of the Type 071 Amphibious Transport Dock.
    This is a rather impressive ship and soon to be one of a projected class of seven.
    Suggest a good opportunity to have a better look at the ship in local waters.
    No doubt we will see a lot more of this class in the region in the years ahead.

    Lots of room inside to carry baby formula and " other things "


    Regards S
     
  18. hauritz

    hauritz Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed the Australian published is yearly Defence report. There is some interesting stuff in there.
    Defence Report May 2019
     
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  19. 76mmGuns

    76mmGuns Member

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    You can see such things happen in the private sector as well. It's simply a matter of supply and demand. My own dad, who worked in IT, used to be in charge of a guy who earned 4 times more than my dad. That dude was only late 20's, and already had plans to retire in 2-3 year's time. Another young IT in a neighbouring department in the same company, early 30's also earning 3-4 times more than my dad, who was a project manager, and also planning to retire.

    I guess having higher pay or retention bonus can help retain people, or, in peacetime, simply give people more money for an earlier retirement or lifestyle shift.

    The above page has been very informative and educational for me. I hadn't read about the issue in such detail before.
     
  20. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    A quick question

    When weapons ( Torpedo / Hellfire missiles ) are loaded onto the Romeo helicopter at sea.
    Is this done on the the flight deck or within the hangar.
    I would suspect the former, but would be interested to know.
    Same question as to refuelling the helicopter.

    Regards S