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Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by icelord, Feb 13, 2007.

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  1. SteveR

    SteveR Active Member

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    Just a late edit - The Henderson Maritime Complex in WA already has a floating Dock to lift ships of up to 12000 tonnes:
    Common User Facility | Australian Marine Complex

    Janes Fighting Ships indicates the light load of Armada AORs on which Supply and Success are based is about 6000 tonnes so they should easily be supported by Henderson floating Dock.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  2. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

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    Captain cook GI dock can take the LHD's, but obviously only 1 at a time. Choules has also been in there. If we were to get any more sealift amphibious lift then I guess they would need to use it as well.

    Also we have that new 26,000t ice breaker too. I would imagine that would have to go into dock every now and then. Then you have some of the larger cruise ships, ferries etc. Ships aren't getting smaller. Future Choules replacement, perhaps a 3rd AOR, other large ships as well.

    Pacific Jewel was in there last year, at ~70,000t she isn't small either..
    Pacific Jewel in Drydock

    Pacific jewel is being sold off, P&O bought the larger 110,000t Star princess.. I don't even know if they would fit in CC..

    If anything was to happen while our larger units were in the Indian ocean, it would be a very long trip to the east coast. We have a task force operating there now, and I assume in the future too. Same for our allies. UK touts their new carrier operating in this region, US has limited Indian ocean capabilities, etc. Plenty of large shipping occurring off the WA coast. I know Civmec was keen to perhaps go for some maintenance of the future frigate, they can probably use the new civmec facilities, but there would be synergies if something bigger existed.
     
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  3. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    Surprisingly I actually agree with yourself and Massive.
    20mm, 25mm, 30mm , 40mm (OPV ) Too much in training and logistics + regardless of the attributes of the DSB30 it's soon to be on just 4 units on only one class of ship.
    So do we keep the DSB30 in service or replace it with a new weapon when the Huons get a refit?

    Regards S
     
  4. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    Thanks Massive

    Add 6 x LCH and divide by 3 and you kind of get a small LST - Something a bit bigger than the Runnymede Class Large landing craft

    Runnymede-class large landing craft - Wikipedia

    Regards S

    Please forgive the wikilink!
     
  5. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Well if I had any say, I'd ditch two calibres of auto cannons and either standardise on 30 mm and 40 mm or 25mm and 35 mm using the 35 mm Millennium guns on the OPVs and as CIWS. The Army has gone 30 mm with its Boxer vehicles so if a good 30 mm CIWS was around I'd definitely ditch Phalanx because I don't think that the 20 mm has the range or hitting power to knock out a supersonic ASM quickly enough. Now if they were able to replace the 20 mm gun in the Phalanx with the 30 mm GAU-8/A Avenger it would be one mean beasty and effective. That leaves the 40 mm for the OPV.
     
  6. Massive

    Massive Active Member

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    30 & 35 would work too.

    30mm for lance turret and ship RWS. 35mm for CIWS, SHORAD.

    Either would work for the OPV.

    Regards,

    Massive
     
  7. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    No, the MSI DS30M is based on the 30 mm Mk 44 Bushmaster II, but the DS30B is based on the Oerlikon 30 mm/75 KCB gun, which has a cyclic RoF of ~650 rounds per minute, vs. ~200 rounds per minute for the Bushmaster II.

    As I have mentioned (repeatedly IIRC) in the past, it would be good for a number of reasons for the RAN to rationalize the small calibre guns in service into just one or two types and calibres in place of the current and planned four different types, each with their own parts and muntions support requirements.
     
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  8. Stampede

    Stampede Active Member

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    I agree, too many calibres, but what's the way forward?
    The new Hobart class have 25mm Bushmasters and Phalanx, with the soon to be built Afafura class having the Leonardo Oto Marlin 40 mm.
    Suggest not a great thought bubble on these decisions and agree settling on two would be the way forward.
    My understanding is the attributes of the Typhoon Busmaster, are low cost ,reliability and no deck penetration.
    Its 25mm size always seemed a poor cousin to the 30 mm round, but I guess for constabulary duties only, and some commonality with the in-service ASLAV fleet it made some sense at the time.
    So does it have a future for the ADF?
    I would prefer not. I feel if we have two small calibre weapons, they most both have a CIWS capability against incoming missiles at least.
    This would realistically rule out the bushmaster range, even if up graded to the smart 30 mm rounds.
    So do we need a CIWS on the new Arafura class? Well in some ways its academic as it will go with the selected choice of a modern 40 mm system which I feel is an excellent decision for the broad range of contingency's the OPV will encounter. Also it some what future proofs the OPV's for when they may not just be OPV's. Alot may happen in 30 years of service.
    It also points to the way forward for a standardised weapon across all our major fleet units. So I would suggest replace all the bushmasters on the Canberra and Hobart class with the Leonardo Oto Marlin 40 mm and also add the 40 mm to the new supply ships and HMAS Choules.
    I wonder with its smaller weight compared to Phalanx if at least one system could be added to each of the ANZAC Class ships.
    Certainly desirable!
    Regarding Phalanx, it is still very much in service with the US and many of her allies including Australia, so while I share many of the concerns regarding its viability for now and the future; it is obviously still the current weapon of choice for the very inner circle of defence and there is probably a reason for that.
    Consequently I defer to those who know and have made that decision. I'd suggest additional units will need to be purchased for across the fleet.
    Currently 18 large ships
    So for me the future is 20mm Phalanx and 40 mm Leonardo.
    Get the 40 mm Leonardo mounts sooner than later and install on eight of the Armidale class with the intention to swap them out with each of the Arafura class as they come into service.
    Hand the older 25mm Bushmaster over to Boarder Force for their Cape class patrol boats- They are the same size as the Armidales and essentially doing the same job so I see no reason not to up gun them given the duties required.
    There is a trend for more robust weaponry on coast guard style ships.
    We need that option.

    Thoughts


    Regards S
     
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  9. Redlands18

    Redlands18 Active Member

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    We do need to buy CIWS for the Hunters so when that happens we may see a gradual upgrade across the Fleet, could see the Phalanx eventually replaced on the Hobarts as well.
    Have to wait and see what happens.
     
  10. Jack Wyatt

    Jack Wyatt Member

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    Grow up.

    As far as I am aware, the caretaker PM has made an election promise of $1bn for ships in WA. The Opposition has not campaigned on Defence so please provide details of what you have mentioned.
     
  11. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    @Jack Wyatt If you want to pick a fight with a Moderator feel free to do so, but you do so at your peril.

    If you have a problem with how a Moderator has moderated a post take it with that Moderator or with another Moderator by private message, not on the open forum.
     
  12. John Newman

    John Newman Well-Known Member

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    The Opposition has not campaigned on Defence? What the??

    Firstly the Government said on 30 April 2019 :

    $1bn naval shipbuilding election commitment for WA - Defence Connect

    Secondly the Opposition said on 3 May 2019:

    Opposition brings the fight to defence debate as election race tightens - Defence Connect

    Did you miss the report about the Opposition announcement? It pretty much echo's the announcement of the Government announcement in WA, maybe you should check your facts before making the claims you did, hey??


    I think the main point that people (well some people) miss during election campaigns (when the Government is in Caretaker mode), is that announcements are not a Government commitment or an Opposition commitment, but a 'political party' commitment 'if' they are elected or re-elected.

    Both the LNP and the ALP have made commitments regarding Defence, as well as commitments to Health, Education, Welfare, etc, etc, etc.

    Just the same as all of the minor parties, such as the loonies on the extreme left and right, such as The Greens, Palmer, Hanson, etc.
     
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  13. John Newman

    John Newman Well-Known Member

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    One last comment on the subject of political 'Pork Barrelling' during election campaigns (which all political parties indulge in).

    For those with very short memories, lets not forget the Defence related announcements that Rudd made (whilst in caretaker mode) during the 2013 election campaign. Rudd made two announcements during that election campaign specifically regarding the RAN, firstly moving FBE Sydney to Brisbane, and of course finally committing to building two new AORs.

    Those were two Pork Barrelling exercises of the highest order, move FBE to Brisbane (all about saving federal ALP seats in QLD at that election), and finally committing to build two new AORs for Navy when during the six year period of ALP Government not one single ship was ordered (suddenly appearing to do something about the Valley of Death).

    Again all political parties indulge in Pork Barrelling, nothing new.

    Cheers,
     
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  14. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    @John Newman ...I would add all parties in all democracies around the world indulge in pork barrelling and the two English speaking countries in Norh America are second to none in this regard.
     
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  15. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    In NZ about 25 - 30 years ago the two main political parties, National & Labour made a backroom deal not to campaign on defence for differing reasons. National because they didn't want to spend the money or political capital required and Labour for ideological reasons. It was a callous self serving arrangement. In Australia the two main parties will talk about defence in their election campaigns, that is the big difference.
     
  16. Redlands18

    Redlands18 Active Member

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    And so they should be 2% of GDP is not a trivial amount of money that’s fast approaching $40b annually.
     
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  17. rossfrb_1

    rossfrb_1 Member

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    Hmmph
    Appears I have been operating under a misapprehension then.
    The somewhat chastened pedant in me will point out that the the ADF operate at least 2 other 30mm cannons in the Hawk LIFT and Tiger ARH, although they are both 30x113.
     
  18. Pusser01

    Pusser01 Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    The floating dock might be able to lift 12000T, but it can only transport loads up to 4500T ashore. Also the dock is only approx. 100M long, when they pulled ex- Darwin out the other month there was a fair bit of over hang. I doubt anything around the 150M mark in length would be able to be accommodated, cheers.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
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  19. t68

    t68 Well-Known Member

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  20. old faithful

    old faithful Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Wouldn't have ship building been a reasonable stimulas package, rather than pink bats, $ 500 hand outs and sheds that were way over priced?
    $500 buys a good party worth of black market drugs, they the pink bats in my place, then removed them because it was deemed dangerous, with no replacement, so effectively, I got zip from that scheme, but the contractor was paid twice....NBN could have been paid for or at least started, but wasn't.
    I don't think the ALP saved us at all. Its still going, it just deleyed it a little.
    This election won't be won by any one, it will be a curse to win it I think.
    Anyway, enough of politics.

    Mods feel free to delete this post, nothing good can come from it.
     
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