Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This never occurred to me before but it is madness. Imagine if the private sector tried to run their businesses like this?

All they would be doing is hiring entry level staff which they would have to then invest enormous amounts of time and money on only to see most of them eventually poached by another company. It would be an absolutely terrible business model doomed to failure.
A mistake made by many pollies, govt bureaucrats, media and many civilians, that militaries are like other govt departments, can operate on a business model, having similar metrics, KPIs and outputs. How do you measure your output? The number of enemy dead? Well Gen Westmoreland did that in Vietnam, boasting about how many VC killed each day / week, and still lost the war. They only metric that counts in the end is win, lose or draw. Ask the Duke of Wellington and Napoleon, or Winston Churchill and Adolf Hitler. Yes outputs do have to be measured in order that funds have to be accounted for to ensure that they are not wasted and KPIs should be measured, but the difficult part is defining what those KPIs and outputs should be, and they certainly cannot be defined by a business model which is built a profit motive.
 

seaspear

Active Member
I know this gets way off the thread but I can recall reading of an exchange between American and Soviet leaders on the use of penal battalions for mine clearance with the Soviet general arguing it saved time time doing this rather than conventional mine clearance methods
this article provides the scale of the use of penal battalions and perhaps the mindset

Shtrafbat - Wikipedia
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I know this gets way off the thread but I can recall reading of an exchange between American and Soviet leaders on the use of penal battalions for mine clearance with the Soviet general arguing it saved time time doing this rather than conventional mine clearance methods
this article provides the scale of the use of penal battalions and perhaps the mindset

Shtrafbat - Wikipedia
What are you suggesting?
 

seaspear

Active Member
The soviet army in this case was prepared to overun nazi lines at any cost including ther use of the penal battalions to detonate the mine fields ,the marshalls were under extreme pressure of penalty to perform
Bonaparte I beleive was stated to say he had an allowance of one hundred thousand men a year ,certainly the trench warfare of ww1 measured suceess for a few hundred yards of field no matter the cost of life , a rather brutal kpi
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The soviet army in this case was prepared to overun nazi lines at any cost including ther use of the penal battalions to detonate the mine fields ,the marshalls were under extreme pressure of penalty to perform
Bonaparte I beleive was stated to say he had an allowance of one hundred thousand men a year ,certainly the trench warfare of ww1 measured suceess for a few hundred yards of field no matter the cost of life , a rather brutal kpi
This is getting rather divorced from the thread topic, namely the Royal Australian Navy, which I suspect might be what the Mod was getting at, at least in part.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The continuing drama of the Chinese ships.
So they had a live fire off the the WA coast.. Apparently in the middle of the indian ocean is off the WA coast.
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/chinese-navy-boasts-of-live-fire-exercise-off-wa-ng-b881223562z

I see the Chinese ships are leaving, apparently with the precious load of baby formula and face masks.

Chinese warships load up Australian baby formula

Showing the high tensions of the situation.

Pretty sure some officers get shore leave. They certainly did back in 2013. They were interested in all the tourist type things, the rocks historic area, the opera house, touristy type shops etc.

I am assuming in NZ, with so many face masks and milk products around it would have been too much to allow them shore leave. Or maybe they were fearful of bringing inferior NZ baby formula back.

Wonder if in future visits they will have to put out a call to supermarkets to increase stock levels of this valuable white powder.
I believe Frank Herbert said it best. "He who controls the milk powder, controls the universe"
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The continuing drama of the Chinese ships.
So they had a live fire off the the WA coast.. Apparently in the middle of the indian ocean is off the WA coast.
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/chinese-navy-boasts-of-live-fire-exercise-off-wa-ng-b881223562z

I see the Chinese ships are leaving, apparently with the precious load of baby formula and face masks.

Chinese warships load up Australian baby formula

Showing the high tensions of the situation.

Pretty sure some officers get shore leave. They certainly did back in 2013. They were interested in all the tourist type things, the rocks historic area, the opera house, touristy type shops etc.

I am assuming in NZ, with so many face masks and milk products around it would have been too much to allow them shore leave. Or maybe they were fearful of bringing inferior NZ baby formula back.

Wonder if in future visits they will have to put out a call to supermarkets to increase stock levels of this valuable white powder.
I believe Frank Herbert said it best. "He who controls the milk powder, controls the universe"
Yep, define "off a coast". Is it 3 nm, 12 nm, 200 nm? It's quite a subjective term and to a back bench pollie and the MSM, off the coast of WA could mean 100 nm due east of South Africa. Some officers probably get shore shore leave but the average sailor doesn't from the looks of it. Here in NZ the supermarkets instituted controls on how much milk each person could purchase per person. Don't know if they still enforce it. Ah, but milk powder doesn't give you the deep blue eyes of the desert dwelling Fremen.
 

seaspear

Active Member
re the visit of foreign ships should Australia decline these visits would we be upset if the R.A.N was excluded from visitis to say Hong kong and mainland China
Possibly the most interesting part of the visit was the amount of products brought back to the ship was this bought as an investment speculation by officers or on behalf of someone and organised by the embassy in a short time for a large amount of product to make a profit using the navy as a means of transport not a corrupt practice of course , all above board lol
 

SteveR

Active Member
Bit of a mistake there, I'm afraid. The Wannsee Conference wasn't to decide on policy, but to rationalise & improve the execution of the policy which was already in place, & already being carried out.

Nazi Germany was truly nasty as soon as it thought it could get away with it, & that was as soon as it ruled territories closed to foreign visitors who might see what was going on - i.e. September 1939.
The Ghettos in Poland had started back in 1939 but their movement to the industrial scale deaths camps,started later. In any case my point is that Mao and his henchmen were the worst mass murderers in the last century and yet we still see his face on banners and Chinese bank notes.

My major enlightenment was reading The Gulag Archipelago where Solzhenitsyn (a decorated Red Army officer) was finally confronted with what was happening out of sight in the Gulags and even older inmates, who remembered the Tzars Okhrana, told him how much worse the Communist methods were. Mao was certainly no better and Khmer Rouge as his apprentices proceeded to wipe out about 1/3 of the Khmer population..
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
It appears that the RAN had some visitors arrive yesterday with little fanfare. Gave some of the locals a bit of a fright.

Chinese warships cause surprise in Sydney Harbour
Always important to engage and talk.
Of particular interest is the appearance of the Type 071 Amphibious Transport Dock.
This is a rather impressive ship and soon to be one of a projected class of seven.
Suggest a good opportunity to have a better look at the ship in local waters.
No doubt we will see a lot more of this class in the region in the years ahead.

Lots of room inside to carry baby formula and " other things "


Regards S
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
In the past there have been retention bonuses etc. with varying degrees of success but with unforseen side effects, i.e. creating dissatisfaction in more senior members who end up being on less money than their less qualified, less experienced subordinates.
You can see such things happen in the private sector as well. It's simply a matter of supply and demand. My own dad, who worked in IT, used to be in charge of a guy who earned 4 times more than my dad. That dude was only late 20's, and already had plans to retire in 2-3 year's time. Another young IT in a neighbouring department in the same company, early 30's also earning 3-4 times more than my dad, who was a project manager, and also planning to retire.

I guess having higher pay or retention bonus can help retain people, or, in peacetime, simply give people more money for an earlier retirement or lifestyle shift.

The above page has been very informative and educational for me. I hadn't read about the issue in such detail before.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
A quick question

When weapons ( Torpedo / Hellfire missiles ) are loaded onto the Romeo helicopter at sea.
Is this done on the the flight deck or within the hangar.
I would suspect the former, but would be interested to know.
Same question as to refuelling the helicopter.

Regards S
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A quick question

When weapons ( Torpedo / Hellfire missiles ) are loaded onto the Romeo helicopter at sea.
Is this done on the the flight deck or within the hangar.
I would suspect the former, but would be interested to know.
Same question as to refuelling the helicopter.

Regards S
I think that this unfortunately will be a 'generic' response, having not had any dealings with the Romeo...

With respect to ship safety, it makes perfect sense that any form of 'refuelling' (i.e. weapons or actual fuel) takes place on the flight deck of a ship.

Fire on a ship is one of the most dangerous events that can happen, so placing the helicopter as far away as possible from the superstructure, not in an enclosed environment, allows a full flow of air in the vicinity, so there's no build up of fuel vapours.

Helicopters are often 'held-in-place' on a flight deck, by a mechanical anchor (by use of the helicopter landing grid), which helps to 'ground' the air frame to the same potential as the ship. Additional tie-downs can be used, as well as an actual earth cable being attached.

A similar approach is used for air weapons, again so that if anything untoward was to happen, then the explosion is not contained within an enclosed structure, so any quasi-static pressure caused during the detonation of the weapon is quickly dispersed.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Derek Woolner’s article in ASPI is a great assessment of the challenges and decisions required to be considered during the planning and construction of the Attack class submarines.
He makes a rational argument against the nuclear option in favour of the rapid development of battery technology which could see future conventional s remaining submerged for up to 80 days.
I look forward to Part 2

Future-proofing the Attack class (part 1): propulsion and endurance | The Strategist
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Derek Woolner’s article in ASPI is a great assessment of the challenges and decisions required to be considered during the planning and construction of the Attack class submarines.
He makes a rational argument against the nuclear option in favour of the rapid development of battery technology which could see future conventional s remaining submerged for up to 80 days.
I look forward to Part 2

Future-proofing the Attack class (part 1): propulsion and endurance | The Strategist
Nuclear power is off the table but I haven't heard much discussion about the safe application of lithium batteries in a warship. Anyone who has seen what happens when lithium and water mix or what can happen if a lithium battery is damaged will know what I mean.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are already plenty of hazards on a submarine. Salt water and electricity will create hydrogen gas, oxygen gas and chlorine gas all of which will kill you three different ways. If your worried about lithium batteries overheating, nuclear reactors are a much bigger hazard in multiple ways. Torpedoes/missiles also have a wonderful mix of chemicals and they are used as bunks for the crew and have destroyed submarines from accidents. Oxygen candles are another wonderful item. How about submarines with huge tanks of LOX and liquid hydrogen! Lithium batteries are much safer than what is already on a submarine. Not that they are safe and idiot proof, but manageable, yes. But you need to be careful.

What is happening now is research and trials of new kinds of technology. You want to include those capabilities when designing your new submarine so you can take advantage if it works out favourable.

Its looking very likely that Lithium Ion technology won't just become attractive, but may actually replace both diesel generation and nuclear propulsion in some submarines. Decommissioning old submarines will also allow old batteries to be re-purposed for grid use, so while a huge investment, it can potentially actually make money after being in a sub. Unlike a nuclear reactor.

Big lithium ion subs won't be second class subs either. They will be faster, quieter, cheaper and more flexible than existing diesel or nuclear submarines. Greater availability as well. Arguably, potentially, even safer.

I too look forward to future reads.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Nuclear power is off the table but I haven't heard much discussion about the safe application of lithium batteries in a warship. Anyone who has seen what happens when lithium and water mix or what can happen if a lithium battery is damaged will know what I mean.
Nuclear propulsion may not be an option at the moment, but who's to say that it doesn't become an option at some stage in the future due to:
  • hydrocarbon based propulsion systems becoming more problematic because of:
    • scarcity of fuel due to dwindling supplies,
    • use of hydrocarbon based fuels become politically / environmentally untenable,
  • breakthrough in nuclear fusion power generation,
  • there is a political decision to go with nuclear propulsion.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Japanese are currently building a Soryu with lithium batteries. Lithium batteries use lithium salts, they don’t use metallic lithium.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I think that this unfortunately will be a 'generic' response, having not had any dealings with the Romeo...

With respect to ship safety, it makes perfect sense that any form of 'refuelling' (i.e. weapons or actual fuel) takes place on the flight deck of a ship.

Fire on a ship is one of the most dangerous events that can happen, so placing the helicopter as far away as possible from the superstructure, not in an enclosed environment, allows a full flow of air in the vicinity, so there's no build up of fuel vapours.

Helicopters are often 'held-in-place' on a flight deck, by a mechanical anchor (by use of the helicopter landing grid), which helps to 'ground' the air frame to the same potential as the ship. Additional tie-downs can be used, as well as an actual earth cable being attached.

A similar approach is used for air weapons, again so that if anything untoward was to happen, then the explosion is not contained within an enclosed structure, so any quasi-static pressure caused during the detonation of the weapon is quickly dispersed.

Thanks for the reply.

I take it, this refuel / Arm procedure would be the same for a Frigate , Destroyer or an LHD!

Regards S
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top