Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sea Toby

New Member
That is pretty much what I expect.

I certainly am no expert, but It doesn't make sense to me that it would cost a lot more money to modify the design and subsequently build the ship without the ski jump.
On the other hand it stands to reason since Australia has no intentions of operating F-35B aircraft, if it were cheaper to eliminate the ski-jump they would do so just to kill the speculation...

But then we would hear that Australia could easily add a ski-jump... There is no end...

The flat top that Australia has missed more is the former Sydney, not Melbourne... The Sydney would have been a wonderful asset during the East Timor crisis, improving Australia's sea lift capacity considerably...

It was the utter shortage of sea lift capacity to influence events in Australia's backyard is the root cause for building the two Canberra class LHDs...

And if Australia doesn't have the sea lift capacity to influence events in East Timor, one wonders about Australia's capacity to defend Tasmania...
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
That is pretty much what I expect.

I certainly am no expert, but It doesn't make sense to me that it would cost a lot more money to modify the design and subsequently build the ship without the ski jump.
The design of the front end of the ship has to be nearly completely redesigned to accomodate the removal of the ski-ramp, because it doesn't make sense to remove the ski-ramp and leave the space it takes up free and not employed and the re-design to make that space useful was considered too expensive so they kept the ski-ramp in the design.

Inferring however that, that implies that we WILL acquire F-35B and operate it from the Canberras is a massive stretch. ADF has confirmed repeatedly we are not interested in F-35B.

A fixed wing UAV or UCAV one day might be a different story and perhaps cross deck training with users of the F-35B, might happen, though it would be politically sensititve, but our own F-35B's?

No chance...
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The design of the front end of the ship has to be nearly completely redesigned to accomodate the removal of the ski-ramp, because it doesn't make sense to remove the ski-ramp and leave the space it takes up free and not employed and the re-design to make that space useful was considered too expensive so they kept the ski-ramp in the design.

Inferring however that, that implies that we WILL acquire F-35B and operate it from the Canberras is a massive stretch. ADF has confirmed repeatedly we are not interested in F-35B.

A fixed wing UAV or UCAV one day might be a different story and perhaps cross deck training with users of the F-35B, might happen, though it would be politically sensititve, but our own F-35B's?

No chance...
Frankly, whether the ship has a ski-jump or not is a non issue. If the ship didn't have a ski-jump, those wishing for a carrier borne F-35Bs would promote them anyway saying a ski-jump can be added. All they see is the flat top. They don't see the lack of sufficient armored bomb magazines, etc., a true carrier requires.

While its true Spain intends to use the Juan Carlos I as a carrier for training during the time the PdA is undergoing a mid-iife refit, not even the Spanish intend to use her as an active carrier in a war situation....

There is much more to a true aircraft carrier than a flat top.....
 
Last edited:
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Frankly, whether the ship has a ski-jump or not is a non issue. If the ship didn't have a ski-jump, those wishing for a carrier borne F-35Bs would promote them anyway saying a ski-jump can be added. All they see is the flat top. They don't see the lack of sufficient armored bomb magazines, etc., a true carrier requires.

While its true Spain intends to use the Juan Carlos I as a carrier for training during the time the PdA is undergoing a mid-iife refit, not even the Spanish intend to use her as an active carrier in a war situation....

There is much more to a true aircraft carrier than a flat top.....
Indeed. I have no quarrel with this argument. Not only are the ships not optimised for fixed wing "carrier" operations as you say, ADF has NO plans whatsoever to actually acquire said fixed wing aircraft...

It is the second biggest non-issue for ADF behind "acquiring F-22's" but just like that rubbish argument, some can't seem to let it go...

Personally I can't wait til we get LHD's for RAN, operating a boat load of MRH-90's, Tigers and perhaps Chinooks, taking an entire mech/motorised battalion wherever they need to go.

It's going to be a fantastic capability, but still not enough for some...
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Indeed. I have no quarrel with this argument. Not only are the ships not optimised for fixed wing "carrier" operations as you say, ADF has NO plans whatsoever to actually acquire said fixed wing aircraft...

It is the second biggest non-issue for ADF behind "acquiring F-22's" but just like that rubbish argument, some can't seem to let it go...

Personally I can't wait til we get LHD's for RAN, operating a boat load of MRH-90's, Tigers and perhaps Chinooks, taking an entire mech/motorised battalion wherever they need to go.

It's going to be a fantastic capability, but still not enough for some...

While, the RAN doesn't currently have any plans to purchase the F-35B. That hardly means it won't at some point. Especially, considering it will already operate F-35A's with the RAAF. So, you can't make a firm case either way at this stage.

Also, its worth noting that even if the RAN doesn't operate F-35B's from the LHD's. Its allies do and could do so in time of conflict or war. In short a nice option to have.........


That said, if I were a betting man. I would say the odds are very good that the F-35B will be a part of the RAN LHD's at some point.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Frankly, whether the ship has a ski-jump or not is a non issue. If the ship didn't have a ski-jump, those wishing for a carrier borne F-35Bs would promote them anyway saying a ski-jump can be added. All they see is the flat top. They don't see the lack of sufficient armored bomb magazines, etc., a true carrier requires..
Totally concur,

It is a continuing irritation to see people talk about getting stumpyJSF just because they see a flat deck. We seem the same arguments offered up about ships like the Hyugas

I've said time and time again.

Bunkerage and deck preparation need to be planned from the beginning, you cannot retro fit these things without considerable time at the body shop and lots of dollars to go with it.

neither of which have or will happen as its too late even if they wanted to.
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Totally concur,

It is a continuing irritation to see people talk about getting stumpyJSF just because they see a flat deck. We seem the same arguments offered up about ships like the Hyugas

I've said time and time again.

Bunkerage and deck preparation need to be planned from the beginning, you cannot retro fit these things without considerable time at the body shop and lots of dollars to go with it.

neither of which have or will happen as its too late even if they wanted to.
Yet, the forth coming RAN/LHD's are based on the Spanish BPE's. Which, are larger than the Japanese Hyuga Class DDH's Carriers. Plus, the fact the former are designed to operate F-35B's and the latter is not.
 

PeterM

Active Member
Totally concur,

It is a continuing irritation to see people talk about getting stumpyJSF just because they see a flat deck. We seem the same arguments offered up about ships like the Hyugas

I've said time and time again.

Bunkerage and deck preparation need to be planned from the beginning, you cannot retro fit these things without considerable time at the body shop and lots of dollars to go with it.

neither of which have or will happen as its too late even if they wanted to.
I agree that it doesn't make sense to operate the Canberras as potential v/stol carriers

Being able to operate helicopters such as Tiger, NH90 along with landing and supporting a mechanised battalion is their role.

The Juan Carlos desgn probably could be modified into a carrier, but it would be at the expense of the amphibious capability.

Personally I find it more interesting to discuss options that are on the RAN horizon such as the pros and cons ansd issues of various contenders for projects like the Maritime Helicoptor, Strategic Sealift Ship, LCH replacement, OPV, Future Frigate, HMAS Sucess replacement and the Collins replacement.
 

Jissy

New Member
Gee, it's unlike ADI to stuff up and otherwise straight forward defence contract. I wonder if Thales actually know what they're getting themselves in for? :confused:
This potential stuff up reminds me of the Collins debacle, I was informed by one the personnel in the building phase that the Collins suffered due to poor protection of components in the yard, beofre they were fitted, hence deterioration, but it wasn't reported as no one wnated to get their arse kicked, so they installed certain components knowing they had problems!

However, it leaves one to really wonder, whether it is pure incompetence, or some saboutage...

One last thought, on the general area topic, why have we not planned to purchase or build a few small size aircraft carriers? Considering our island status and distance from the rest of the world, I would have thought that an impotant inclusion in our hardware?

A smaller and faster version, maybe a new design we could build here?

cheers
 

the road runner

Active Member
well, they're busy beavering away with a few options. :)
Can you elaborate more gf?If you cannot its very understandable..........

I am very interested in the front design of the Future Aussie Subs.

After reading the book,The Collins Story,and hearing about the problems they had placing a sonar in the front of the Collins boats due to the shape.

Will the future Subs have a simalar "penis shape" as Collins?

Or will they be a point.......similar to Los Angeles class subs?

Regards
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This potential stuff up reminds me of the Collins debacle, I was informed by one the personnel in the building phase that the Collins suffered due to poor protection of components in the yard, beofre they were fitted, hence deterioration, but it wasn't reported as no one wnated to get their arse kicked, so they installed certain components knowing they had problems!
Sorry, I was involved with Collins from the start - and left when there were 3 boats concurrently being built in the shed. That story sounds like BS to me as everything was kept inside - for obvious security and satellite overflight issues.

the principle problems were with number 1 - and that was due to over 10,000 faulty welds done in sweden prior to delivery. they buggered up the bow of number 1 so badly that it was almost considered a write off in repairs.

thank god they were bound by contract to fix it.

If your contact worked on Collins he will know the nicknames of some of the equipment used in the main build shed.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am very interested in the front design of the Future Aussie Subs.

After reading the book,The Collins Story,and hearing about the problems they had placing a sonar in the front of the Collins boats due to the shape.

Will the future Subs have a simalar "penis shape" as Collins?

Or will they be a point.......similar to Los Angeles class subs?

Regards
couple of things. shape is not even established, its the technology sets that are being considered.

the shape of the bow in collins was a legacy of technologies and reqs at the time. it made sense to have the most powerful suite non nuclear available at the time as it was inherently a bluewater fleet sub,

new technologies mean that the need for a large prominent bow to accomodate powerful sonar are less likely. the key to Collins sensor suite is onboard power - and thats where large subs have it all over smaller subs. greater extant storage and energy generation means more powerful sensors, range issues and flexibility.

that doesn't alter the fact though that Kockums never tank tested that design in the first place - it was only done in australia and the US (when the americans offered to give support in repairing some of the design flaws)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
While, the RAN doesn't currently have any plans to purchase the F-35B. That hardly means it won't at some point. Especially, considering it will already operate F-35A's with the RAAF. So, you can't make a firm case either way at this stage.

Also, its worth noting that even if the RAN doesn't operate F-35B's from the LHD's. Its allies do and could do so in time of conflict or war. In short a nice option to have.........


That said, if I were a betting man. I would say the odds are very good that the F-35B will be a part of the RAN LHD's at some point.
Given the imposed savings on defence over the next 10 years, it is even more unlikely than EVER that we will acquire F-35B.

Whilst they share a lot with F-35A, the cost and capability difference and the increased support required for F-35B makes them different enough to impose a serious logistical headache on RAAF.

Furthermore, what would they actually offer ADF? Each Canberra Class LHD could only ever carry a handful of F-35B's due to the ships not carrying the bunkerage (ie: fuel storage) and armoured magazine for ordnance. The storage areas of the ships, designed to carry troops, vehicles and helos would have to make way for workshops to support the aircraft, lessening the ships capability in their primary role...

What would 6-10 F-35B's at sea actually provide Australia? Some local air defence and limited strike. What they can't provide is 24/7 combat air patrol/fleet defence and they can't provide ANY combat air patrol AND strike capability simultaneously. Such a small fleet could only do one or the other, for very short durations, again only to the detriment of the amphibious capability of the Canberra class.

Personally if the billions that would have to exist in addition to the AIR-6000 budget to acquire an F-35B capability, were actually available, I'd much prefer that money to go into REAL strike and air defence capability within ADF.

1. Every major surface combatant and submarine in RAN service in future years be equipped with Tomahawk Block IV launch capability.

2. Every major RAN surface combatant be equipped with high power 3D air defence radar systems, CEC capability and the ability to launch and/or control multiple ESSM and SM-2/SM-6 missile systems at "over the horizon" (OTH) ranges.

3. Every major RAN vessel, combatant and otherwise to carry a UAV/UCAV system that is capable of conducting OTH air to air and air to surface surveillance missions to maximise the capability of extended range SAM systems such as SM-2 and SM-6.

4. Additional Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft and CEC fitted to the Wedgetail fleet, (if it isn't programmed already, which I think it might be).

5. Priority acquisition of Global Hawk surveillance aircraft and modification to allow "surrogate extended range air surveillance" role in combination with Wedgetail.

Wedgetail would be linked to GH via Link 16/21 and the GH optimised for A2A and maritime surveillance to provide an extensive wide-area air surveillance and targetting coverage, just as the USN and USAF plan. With the aerial surveillance covered, the full envelope of SM-2/SM-6 could be employed, providing enormous air defence capability at extended ranges.

(As an insight into what this would achieve, imagine one of Dr Kopp's pretty pictures, with a 300k radius on each side of a single ship. Overlay that on ANY island in the Pacific and see what that does for deployed ADF air defence capabilities, even with just one ship... If 2 or more were deployed, we could have a deployed air defence system with a coverage "bubble" near 1200k's in diameter with only 2 ships and a deployed warshot inventory of greater than 80x long ranged anti-air missiles, more than 120x medium ranged anti-air missiles and up to 50x TLAM's, plus the amphibs providing full capability in their intended role. That would be a tough nut for anyone to try and crack...

5. Additional KC-30A refuelling aircraft.

6. Extended range standoff weapons for RAAF tactical fighter aircraft (JASSM-ER or JSOW-ER if JASSM falls over).

7. Extended range strike systems for Army offensive fires capability. (HIMARS and ATACMS surface to surface missile systems).

All of these systems are funded in some way (bar the HIMARS/ATACMS combo). The billions your handful of deployed F-35B's would soak up, would go a LONG way to covering the rest of these capabilities.

A purpose designed carrier would be nice, but there is SO much OTHER capability we could obtain for the price of a light carrier plus it's air group that would give us SO much more...

It is possible some "cross deck" operations may occur in future, with F-35B's from allies using our flattops for refuelling, emergency landings etc. I don't see even in the most "out there" crystal ball gazing, RAN employing their own F-35B's from these vessels.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Given the imposed savings on defence over the next 10 years, it is even more unlikely than EVER that we will acquire F-35B.
Given the fact that we've been directed to save $20bn over 10 years, the fact that contractors and consultants are out of favour and we've been directed to use reservists in preference, etc... then the chances of getting them are zero.

they were zero before, they're prenatal negative now.
 

PeterM

Active Member
well, they're busy beavering away with a few options. :)
I am sure they are :)

According to the DCP, the concept design Phase 1A is due to be completed in FY09/10 to FY10/11.
Alot of work will be currently being done behind the scenes.

So what kind of options and technologies would people like to or expect to see being considered for the new submarines?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
One last thought, on the general area topic, why have we not planned to purchase or build a few small size aircraft carriers? Considering our island status and distance from the rest of the world, I would have thought that an impotant inclusion in our hardware?

A smaller and faster version, maybe a new design we could build here?

cheers
Another thing to consider, in addition to the posts made by AD and GF, the need for escorts to screen the proposed carrier(s). At present, with 3 AWD planned, that is enough to ensure that one is available for deployment at any given time. This could then allow an AWD to screen one or both LHDs if they are deployed in a surge. Depending on circumstances, it might be possible to surge the deployment of AWD and have two escorting vessels. Adding a carrier into the mix would increase the number air defence skimmers, unless the carrier(s) and LHDs always deployed together or not at all.

Unless the carriers were to be acquired in place of the LHDs, such an acquisition would put stress on the RAN, as it would increase the crewing requirements for the carriers, as well as require the additional escorts mentioned about, which in turn need yet more crews...

For a variety of reasons, I would like to see the RAN operate carriers again, just like I would rather the RAAF be purchasing F-35C JSF, or a mix of -B and -C models... However, reality intrudes on this in terms of can and will be funded, as well as what capabilities are most useful, and useful relative to cost.

-Cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Australia has air tanker aircraft today which it didn't have when the former Melbourne was in service. The British flew four new Typhoons to the Falklands following a tanker recently. Yes, it was a very long flight from Ascension Island to the Falklands. But the long flight does show how far one tanker can support ferrying four fighters not fully loaded for combat. I can't imagine Australia would need much further fighter range in the Southwest Pacific area. I would rather have more air tankers than a light carrier.

There is a reason why the former Melbourne wasn't replaced.

I repeat the flat top Australia has missed more is the Sydney, not the Melbourne.

Something the Canberra class LHDs will replace wonderfully. Not once but twice.....

I know, I know, there are You Tube videos of the former Melbourne. But I insist the Sydney provided much more power projection than the Melbourne. The ship which should have You Tube videos on the internet is the Sydney....
 
Last edited:

the road runner

Active Member
the key to Collins sensor suite is onboard power - and thats where large subs have it all over smaller subs. greater extant storage and energy generation means more powerful sensors, range issues and flexibility
Intresting point,and i thought it was all about the shape of the sub.

Is AIP on subs the way to go or are there other technoligies being looked at?

Any links would be great,for this arm chair Admiral:)

HMAS Canberra was scuttled of the Victorian coast.You can read about it below if anyone is intrested.......

HMAS Canberra scuttled off Ocean Grove - Local News - Geelong, VIC, Australia

Video of the sinking of HMAS Canberra

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Mc3s6l9M0]YouTube - ex HMAS Canberra sinking[/ame]

Good to see HMAS Canberra will still be providing joy and $$$$$ to the Australian community..

Regards
 

knightrider4

Active Member
New Subs.

Intresting point,and i thought it was all about the shape of the sub.

Is AIP on subs the way to go or are there other technoligies being looked at?

Any links would be great,for this arm chair Admiral:)

HMAS Canberra was scuttled of the Victorian coast.You can read about it below if anyone is intrested.......

HMAS Canberra scuttled off Ocean Grove - Local News - Geelong, VIC, Australia

Video of the sinking of HMAS Canberra

YouTube - ex HMAS Canberra sinking

Good to see HMAS Canberra will still be providing joy and $$$$$ to the Australian community..

Regards
I remember reading sometime back in Navy League Magazine about a variation of the Virginia SSN. Its displacement was smaller 4000-5000 tonnes submerged. It was conventionally powered utilising the HTS motors & lithium ion batteries. I think it was called the stocker design. However this particular design lacked much in the way of specialised uuv storage & launch/retrieval.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top