Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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InterestedParty

Active Member
HMAS Stalwart

Please pardon this question
Today is the anniversary of the decommissioning of HMAS Stalwart, a destroyer tender, in 1990.
What has changed in naval operations to seemingly render the roles of destroyer and submarine tender obsolete?
 

koala

Member
I believe the planned load out is 32-40 SM-2 and 32-64 ESSM. Initially the RAN was leaning to the 40/32 load out but as their experience with ESSM has grown they now favour 32/64. Remember that ESSMs envelope is pretty close to SM-1 so it is by no means a capability reduction verses legacy systems, especially as ESSM can now be lofted on auto pilot and only requires guidance in the terminal phase as for SM-2, while ESSM Block II will have an active seeker as well.
So for 12 surface combatants with a 32-64 mix would require 384 of the SM family plus 768 ESSM missiles, then include 96 Harpoons, plus 12 new subs with torpedoes and Harpoons.
Even without reloads, our munition inventory will grow dramatically with the more cells fitted to our navy combatants.
Some of the John Wayne twin pistol cowboys have even talked about arming our LHD's and OPV's with missile cells.
All of a sudden billions of dollars are rolling around eyeball's.
Maybe it is better to be fitted for but not with?
Cheers Chris
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
So for 12 surface combatants with a 32-64 mix would require 384 of the SM family plus 768 ESSM missiles, then include 96 Harpoons, plus 12 new subs with torpedoes and Harpoons.
Even without reloads, our munition inventory will grow dramatically with the more cells fitted to our navy combatants.
Some of the John Wayne twin pistol cowboys have even talked about arming our LHD's and OPV's with missile cells.
All of a sudden billions of dollars are rolling around eyeball's.
Maybe it is better to be fitted for but not with?
Cheers Chris
Maybe we could get one one of our Navy guys to explain when the ships weapon systems are normally loaded and when they are not? I would suspect they are not when in maintenence but are when they go deploy overseas.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe we could get one one of our Navy guys to explain when the ships weapon systems are normally loaded and when they are not? I would suspect they are not when in maintenence but are when they go deploy overseas.
Pretty much, think along the lines of the rule of 3. But you won't get exact answers to that for obvious reasons :)

Cheers
 

Samoa

Member
ADM's report of FREMM in Australia
FREMM Carabiniere: the new cop in town

2 hanger for 2 large helicopter
"silent speed" up to 15.6knots
Hull noise level designed for 110db, ended up with 85
Quite normal to detect a Type212 at around 40,000 yards (20 nm)

"The warmer waters the ship had experienced both during this deployment, and the former African operations (up to 30 degrees) had not posed any problem, he said." Hmmmmm, Australia has very hot summer. Isn't it?

Question: Is noise level of 85db good or bad by modern standard?
It's above the stipulated occupied compartment noise requirement for audible noise, and basically has little to do with how effective a platform is at maintaining threshold URN.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
.
Some of the John Wayne twin pistol cowboys have even talked about arming our LHD's and OPV's with missile cells.
All of a sudden billions of dollars are rolling around eyeball's.
Maybe it is better to be fitted for but not with?
Cheers Chris
Distributed lethality.

Just because a platform is fitted for it doesn't mean they actually have to be fitted with VLS, medium calibre gun, ASW torpedo tubes, multiple Typhoons, Phalanx/RAM SeaRAM/Sea Ceptor, Hapoon, RBS15, Longbow Hellfire, Romeo, Sierra, Firescout, CAEFAR, VDS, UUV/USV etc. Just because the ship is fitted with the systems doesn't mean it needs to have full magazines or the latest greatest iteration of the available ordinance.

But if things were to hot up the required systems would be acquired and the magazines filled, the caveated being if they are available. If the platforms acquired are not capable of being easily fitted with these systems then the entire concept of distributed lethality falls over.

Other factors to be considered are the thinking behind an expeditionary ABM capability is to protect an amphibious landing from ballistic missile attack making, for the USN at least, LPDs an attractive future ABM platform, they would also be attractive land attack missile carriers for similar reasons. As for defensive missiles on LHDs, its actually quite common in other navies because one of the hardest targets is a crossing sea skimming missile, i.e. it is easier for a ship to defend itself than it is to defend another ship against leakers. Again there needs to be available space, weight and reserve stability, plus suitable sensors, combat system and or data links/CEC. Not cheap but if you happen to have a pool of suitable systems made surplus to requirements and a compatible combat system, not impossible, nor as expensive as starting from scratch (the LHDs have the same combat system as the ANZACs).

I don't know how many cells the new frigates will be completed with as many os designs were actually delivered with only a fraction the possible number of cells. Eight instead of a possible 24 (may even be 32) on the Nansen class, space and weight reserved on the type23, type 45, type 26 and type 123 class frigates to name a few. It is possible the SEA 5000 Ships may initially only have 24 cells but be designed for 32, 48, or even 64 cells.

As for minor combatants the reasoning is again distributed lethality and Australia was planning corvettes with a near ANZAC baseline combat system, including an 8 cell Mk41. Now the corvettes are long gone in terms of future capability but as the FFGs then ANZACs retire the RAN will have access to a pool of 12 8cell Mk41 VLS, 4-6 Mk75 76mm guns, 8 Mk45 127mm guns, 24-28 Mk 32 tripe torpedo tubes, 8 near new ANZAC ASMD systems, plus various other sensors, directors, generators, propulsion diesels and GTs. This is stuff the Commonwealth owns that either definitely, or most likely will not be used on the new frigates and is worth stuff all on the second hand market, assuming permission / end user certificate can be obtained. As I understand some, if not all the OPV contenders can be fitted / for many of these very systems with no or little cost.

Recent news shows the LCS mission modules to be proceeding quite well now. I am curious as to how expensive it would be to configure the OPVs and/or other ships to be compatible with these mission modules. Looking outside the square here but also recalling the COOP mine hunter program of the late 80s early 90s, not so much for the Craft Of OPportunity taken up from trade, but the deployable MCM capability designed to be operated by reserve divisions, I wonder how difficult /expensive it would be to buy a small number of LCS mission modules to maintain a training cadre.

The idea would be that in the event of a conflict or increasing tensions, we hook into the USN reserves and supply chains acquire as many missiles to fill the empty VLS, and as many mission modules to equip our OPVs (or potentially other ships too) as possible. This is not about spending extra billions on the RAN, its about looking at future proofing what we can afford within the current budget, its not so much for but not with like on the ANZACs but rather meeting current requirements but with an eye on possible future needs.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It's above the stipulated occupied compartment noise requirement for audible noise, and basically has little to do with how effective a platform is at maintaining threshold URN.
Bang on, the IMO Noise code is a good reference for those who are interested. Even commercial ships have maximum noise level standards applied to the living and working spaces.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Defence Technology Review - Defence Technology Review
Interesting article about the Combat system for the OPVs, could be upgraded to 9LV or equiv. As you said in a earlier post Volk, things can change.
Very interesting, thanks for that. They can change and change very quickly at times, only a couple of weeks ago someone involved in the CEP told me nothing that wasn't being offered in the baseline designs from the down selected designers would be making it into the batch one OPVs, which is pretty much what someone in the SPO told me not long before that. I wonder if perhaps someone has briefed government on distributed lethality as well as the amount of surplus gear we have/will have from the Adelaides and ANZACs.

All the short listed designs are capable of being fitted with many of the spare/surplus systems we have, the only issue being the lack of a CMS in the commonwealths requirements. Once the basic architecture is there then the RAN can pretty much reuse anything they want from the ANZACs at very minimal extra cost and perhaps even make savings as such a baseline would make a very effective seagoing training platform for just about all the systems on the majors.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
9LV does seem to make a lot of sense.

Common system etc.

Though would not have thought there would be a lot of fitted 'with' just yet?

A stabilised 35mm and 2x stabilised 12.7mm would seem more than sufficient.

Upgrade path of Nulka, SeaRam, NSM I guess.

Regards,

Massive
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
9LV does seem to make a lot of sense.

Common system etc.

Though would not have thought there would be a lot of fitted 'with' just yet?

A stabilised 35mm and 2x stabilised 12.7mm would seem more than sufficient.

Upgrade path of Nulka, SeaRam, NSM I guess.

Regards,

Massive
Yes you would think unless Thales could offer a significantly cheaper option that the 9LV would be chosen due to commonality. There is also a 2nd article in the same DTR edition on why they should be fitting a decent CMS on the OPVs, makes a lot of sense.
 

pussertas

Active Member
A New Forum on the Baracuda 1A Submarine?

Ever since the Submarine forum collapsed I have been searching the web for information on what is happening re Australia's new submarine. To little avail.

Am concerned that the French will go to extreme lengths to ensure that they obtain the bulk of the design work and through that the claim to the intellectual property. Thus most of the design work will be undertaken in France with the corresponding increase in local employment.

Found that the SA Government will open schools designed to teach the French curriculum and obviously pupils would be taught in French.

The RAN are (one again) to construct the lead boat and with all the problems that will arise - the media will have a field day.

Anyone else feel this way?


:dunce
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ever since the Submarine forum collapsed I have been searching the web for information on what is happening re Australia's new submarine. To little avail.

Am concerned that the French will go to extreme lengths to ensure that they obtain the bulk of the design work and through that the claim to the intellectual property. Thus most of the design work will be undertaken in France with the corresponding increase in local employment.

Found that the SA Government will open schools designed to teach the French curriculum and obviously pupils would be taught in French.

The RAN are (one again) to construct the lead boat and with all the problems that will arise - the media will have a field day.

Anyone else feel this way?


:dunce
The French already have the bulk of the 'design work'. It is their submarine afterall that we are buying...

The RAN are not constructing the boats. Australian Submarine Corporation will...

Not sure what the relevance of SA education school curriculum is, but where I am from, French is but one of many 'immersion' subjects on offer. I'm not convinced that this is bad news in any way whatsoever, especially seeing as we will operate more Spanish and German / Dutch designed ships than we will French. Are these an issue for you?

Not sure what is going on with the odd font either, maybe just post as everyone else, does?
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not aimed at anyone in particular but posters with blue tags are defence professionals and do have more than a modicum of knowledge in their area of expertise and defence in general. The Moderators are becoming very annoyed with the posting behavior upon this thread, so it is very strongly suggested that the posting behavior is changed for the better or consequences will follow.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro


Found that the SA Government will open schools designed to teach the French curriculum and obviously pupils would be taught in French.
relevance? eg SA already has International Public Schools where french and other foreign languages are taught as specialty curricula.

making it easier for french embeds seems pretty logical to me, the french are going to be here for a long time, so anything that keeps the embeds happy is more than logical - its fundamental
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
relevance? eg SA already has International Public Schools where french and other foreign languages are taught as specialty curricula.

making it easier for french embeds seems pretty logical to me, the french are going to be here for a long time, so anything that keeps the embeds happy is more than logical - its fundamental
I saw that Fincantieri paid for two SA business students to study in Italy. Drop in the ocean really.

Many French engineers speak English, there are a decent number of French speakers in Australia and French has always been one of the more common 2nd languages taught in schools. There are 53,000 french speakers in Australia. There are a number of french schools in Australia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycée_Condorcet_(Sydney) is even regulated by France and teaches some English to encourage bi-lingualisim.

400,000 Australians visit New Caledonia every year, and Australia sponsors over 100 students to study in Australia.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't start French lessons in the Australian Army a head of the referendum.

Most likely many French DCNS employees will be queing up to come to Australia.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
posters with blue tags are defence professionals.
Hope you don't mind me adding to this NG :)

To get the blue tag as a Defence Professional, the members are actually vetted by Webmaster and the Moderator team to verify claims of service or knowledge in a particular field. IE: We supply to the team relevant documents, service records etc so claims are 100%

That is also not to say that there are other member who are also Current/Prior serving members or have applicable knowledge who do not have the blue tags, but if you look at how certain members engage you should be able to figure that out :)

Cheers
 
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