Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Stampede]

So I confess to a little bit of sarcasm above; and I apologise to @Tbone, @Stampede and @Murse for appearing to dismiss them

But the sad reality that has to be hammered home to all the commentators is that, like it or love it, there is no option but SSN. Even if you scrap SSNs now, you are going to not see a SSK until the late 30s. Remember also that there will have to be additional hulls and capabilities to make up for what has been lost with SSNs. People consistently under-estimate the cost, time into service, or workforce that a submarine fleet needs. As @Todjaeger makes it clear with the Japanese example, there are no nations sitting around with free SSK/SSN industry. And making it built in Australia just adds to those estimates.

Repeat after me - there is no plan B. Or C. Those feasible options were ejected in 2024. There is only one way forward.... Collins -> Virginia -> AUKUS.

Yes ……Limited options but to go with Plan A.

Agree with the enormity of time , coin and energy to start another “SEA 1000 “

That said I will still keep the looking glass handy for Plan D , just in case

Hornet, F111 -> F35

Hornet, F111 -> Super Hornet + Growler -> F35

Sometimes unscripted stop gap acquisitions work out well.
Yes , we had time to make that prudent decision.

Note to self

Submarine not sub !

Cheers S

 

[iambuzzard]

Yes ……Limited options but to go with Plan A.

Agree with the enormity of time , coin and energy to start another “SEA 1000 “

That said I will still keep the looking glass handy for Plan D , just in case

Hornet, F111 -> F35

Hornet, F111 -> Super Hornet + Growler -> F35

Sometimes unscripted stop gap acquisitions work out well.
Yes , we had time to make that prudent decision.

Note to self

Submarine not sub !

Cheers S

And they're boats, not ships. Hollywood always get it wrong.

 

[spoz]

Subs - subnormal, subhuman, subordinate, Sub-Lieutenant, Sub Inspector, subliminal, substandard - but not submarines! (And if I’m in one of the Navy’s camps, it’s the FAA, not the upholstered sewer pipes, but still….)

 

[MARKMILES77]

ANL Kokoda revealed as first vessel for the Strategic Fleet.

Transport Minister Catherine King will announce on Friday that the government has signed a contract for container ship ANL Kokoda, which is 175 metres long and 27 metres wide, to be the first of three vessels in a pilot program for the strategic fleet.

Built in 2011, the ship has a maximum capacity of 23,000 metric tonnes and has a crew size of 36. It had previously been sailing under the Maltese flag.

The government still hopes to create a fleet of 12 privately owned and commercially operated ships that can be requisitioned in times of crisis, including natural disasters and supply chain disruptions.

First ship in government’s long-awaited ‘strategic fleet’ revealed

The number of large Australian-flagged ships has dwindled to just nine – down from a peak of more than 100 – leaving the nation exposed in times of emergency.

www.theage.com.au

 

[koxinga]

A couple of points.

I don't think the weight for the Hunter is in the mast frame. The "heavyness" is in the radar panels and associated gear that has to be in the mast. I suspect the weight differential between aluminium and carbon fibre doesn't make a huge difference in this context. Whats a few kilos when the radar weighs tonnes

The T26 is different in that it is a much lighter radar mounted higher. Carbon fibre might have a weight advantage in this application.

Carbon fibre is a great material, but it can be an absolute pain to maintain. Repairing cracks in it are not easy, and sometimes it is cheaper to scrap and build a new one.

Carbon fibre has its weaknesses. It can be brittle. There are plenty of high end yachts that have suffered sudden mast failures as an example. It delaminates over time and is suseptible to water ingress. Carbon fibre usually has an outer layer for water protection, but once that is damaged, salt degrades the resin.

Any yachtie will tell you that anything carbon fibre means expensive to buy, expensive to keep and every weekend looking after it.

There are a number of reasons why the use of carbon fibre is limited; effects of damage and fire, ability to flex and to form faraday cages; and maintainability amongst them. It is used, but in fairly carefully selected places.

For all the reasons stated, it is being implemented on a large scale by the Republic of Singapore Navy with Saab, first with the LMV and now with the MRCV. These are not small applications but entire sections like the mast and main superstructure and in the MRCv case, housing the fixed AESA panels for Thales SeaFire.

Perhaps for commercial applications it might be true but it is an assumption that it is the same construction or materials used in naval applications.

https://e-lass.eu/media/2021/03/2020-03-12-Composite-LASS-S-Saab-Kockums.pdf

https://www.saab.com/globalassets/products/kockums/composite-superstructure/saab_compositesuperstructure.pdf

 

[Reptilia]

HMAS Eyre

Defence Imagery: S20261513 VNR NUSHIP Eyre CO.mp4

images.defence.gov.au

-Mission(Indian Ocean) > Constabulary operations, (operation resolute)EEZ. Future Unmanned Aerial and undersea support within the next few years.
-Larger vessel, longer endurance, more time on station, rapid insertion, operate greater sea state and weather conditions.
-Current crew 42. Future Crew 35-38.

 

[MickB]

Apologies in advance but the Collin’s Class expectation is very much a concern for myself.
The reality is HMAS Collins was commissioned 30 years ago.
The youngest Rankin 23 years.
They are now old subs.
Not middle aged.
Old!
We all know the history prior to AUKUS.

On that script they should currently be in transition to a new class of sub.
Be that the Attack class or preferably an alternative program that should have started in the early 20 teens.
Now Id like to be all fanboy with SSNs but
I can’t help but feel uncomfortable with the size of the endeavour.

So 2026 and we are still navigating what Collins future and potential is with the sad acknowledgment time is not on their side and the options are limited.

Surely when AUKUS was promoted all the bad case scenarios were workshopped.

I’d suggest no!
While I can understand that the core team that galvanised the setting up of AUKUS was by necessity secretive and small in number, surely there must of been an acknowledgment that Collins was getting on in years and a potential challenge.

Now I get click bait and the naysayers argument of negativity.
Journalists mentioned are on that bus, but sometimes when there’s smoke there’s fire.

Upshot I believe we have a problem.

I see absolutely no chance any Collins boats will see 2040.
If by miracle they do ,how capable and relevant will they be.
At best a training platform.

Seriously does anyone on DT honestly believe any Collins class will be in service beyond 2040

HMAS Rankin another 14 years ?

So our plan A is our plan B

Virginia Class 3 to 5 units and a transition to HMAS AUKUS in the early 40s.

We are not in a very good negotiating position.

Cheers S

Not a defence pro here but I do listen to the ones that are.
A common statement made by pros on DT is that it is not just about the platform but a system of systems.
With regard to to Collins by the time the LOTE is finished the RAN will have several types of UUVs in service.
So it will not be the Collins alone but the Collins at the centre of a system of systems.
Call it mothership or central control node, either way the submarine operations of the past that we envisage through movies will have little in common with those of the future.

 

[Lofty_DBF]

Our subs come out of Adelaide from their refits looking brand new and in a good material state. I wouldn't be worried about the age and capabilities of the platforms.

 

[SammyC]

Not a defence pro here but I do listen to the ones that are.
A common statement made by pros on DT is that it is not just about the platform but a system of systems.
With regard to to Collins by the time the LOTE is finished the RAN will have several types of UUVs in service.
So it will not be the Collins alone but the Collins at the centre of a system of systems.
Call it mothership or central control node, either way the submarine operations of the past that we envisage through movies will have little in common with those of the future.

I agree. A couple of points.

While the scope of the Collins LOTE has changed dramatically over the last few years, that is fairly normal for any project of this size. I don't think I have ever been on a civilian project whereby the final construction looks like its original concept.

Also the ANAO produces audits on all government agencies. I think I am yet to see one that is positive and said "fantastic work guys". They are permanently on the grumpy juice for everybody. Collins LOTE is no different. Have a look at their website.

Additionally, I would envision that the work taskings for Collins will change over the next two decades. While itmight be currently used for long distance missions, I would suspect that as it gets older it will be used more in our own local waters, where it is more protected, can snorkel safely and it doesn't overly strain its hull and machinery. Drones and SSNs will take on the longer distance stuff.

Drones will become more and more dominant in this space. Ghost Shark and Speartooth are first generation products. Imagine what they will look like at gen 3, 4 and 5 within the next few years.

To be overt, Collins is not going to be spending much time, if any, up in high risk places like the south china sea, or around Taiwan, or on anything long distance. That is no longer their job or focus. It will be protecting our own local waters and shipping lanes. It will become a coastal submarine, with blue water capability if absolutely needed. I can't even see it going to RIMPAC ever again.

 

[SammyC]

Saronic Launches First Marauder Medium Unmanned Surface Vessel - Naval News

On a different note, but also on the theme of drones, Saronic recently launched their first actual hull of their Marauder USV.

Saronic itself is only about three years old, so this build cycle is exceptionally fast. Most other companies would still be in preliminary design. Its at launch status, so I imagine it has a while in fitout stage before it can be operational.

I like its hull form better than other similar prototypes such as USX Defiant. Better frontal protection in rougher weather. It appears wide enough to have some inbuilt rolling resistance. Not too different to a typical offshore working vessel.

While this is tailored to the USN MUSV program, they have opened an office in Australia and it would be a type of drone I would view we could be interested in.

It has a payload of 150 tonnes, can hold four 40" containers, travel at up to 25 kts and has a range of over 5,000kms. That specification is useful, either as a logistics vessel (this could move army equipment around just as well as one of the new LCMs), ISR (150 tonnes is a large amount of surveilance gear and would be sufficient for a small radar), or strike (a single fully loaded Typhon missile launcher is about 30 tonnes, and a quadpack adaptable deck launcher is about 15 tonnes with a charge of ESSMs).

Saronic reckon they could produce 20 of these vessels a year from their current yard in the US (very basic, its a shed and a jetty).

It will be interesting to see how this vessel goes through sea trials. One to perhaps keep an eye on, and example of the disruption coming with the new type of defence company emerging.

 

[Reptilia]

Saronic Launches First Marauder Medium Unmanned Surface Vessel - Naval News

On a different note, but also on the theme of drones, Saronic recently launched their first actual hull of their Marauder USV.

Saronic itself is only about three years old, so this build cycle is exceptionally fast. Most other companies would still be in preliminary design. Its at launch status, so I imagine it has a while in fitout stage before it can be operational.

I like its hull form better than other similar prototypes such as USX Defiant. Better frontal protection in rougher weather. It appears wide enough to have some inbuilt rolling resistance. Not too different to a typical offshore working vessel.

While this is tailored to the USN MUSV program, they have opened an office in Australia and it would be a type of drone I would view we could be interested in.

It has a payload of 150 tonnes, can hold four 40" containers, travel at up to 25 kts and has a range of over 5,000kms. That specification is useful, either as a logistics vessel (this could move army equipment around just as well as one of the new LCMs), ISR (150 tonnes is a large amount of surveilance gear and would be sufficient for a small radar), or strike (a single fully loaded Typhon missile launcher is about 30 tonnes, and a quadpack adaptable deck launcher is about 15 tonnes with a charge of ESSMs).

Saronic reckon they could produce 20 of these vessels a year from their current yard in the US (very basic, its a shed and a jetty).

It will be interesting to see how this vessel goes through sea trials. One to perhaps keep an eye on, and example of the disruption coming with the new type of defence company emerging.

5,400nm range in the article(25T), 4,100nm with max load(150T), was 3,400nm on the original data sheet at max load.
25knts sprint listed in the article but previously 18-20 knts max, 12 knts cruise.

Hard to believe any of these numbers until proven.

 

[iambuzzard]

Our subs come out of Adelaide from their refits looking brand new and in a good material state. I wouldn't be worried about the age and capabilities of the platforms.

Submarines or boats. Before the pros on here get upset! Lol

 

[Lofty_DBF]

Submarines or boats. Before the pros on here get upset! Lol

I don't really care if I upset any so called "Pro's".

 

[Reptilia]

News out of Shangri-La Dialogue will see Aus get 3 used Virginias(likely all block IV) and 0 new.

Also on pillar II

‘Pillar II – Advanced Capabilities

The Deputy Prime Minister and Secretaries reaffirmed the critical importance of accelerating the delivery of advanced capabilities under AUKUS Pillar II. They announced the first AUKUS Pillar II Signature Project: developing cutting-edge payloads and enabling systems for AUKUS partners’ Uncrewed Undersea Vehicles (UUVs), with delivery starting in 2027. This project is intended to significantly enhance AUKUS partners’ ability to protect critical national seabed infrastructure; deploy cutting edge surveillance, reconnaissance, and strike capabilities; conduct logistics operations; and bolster superiority in anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare, mine countermeasures, electronic warfare, and contested littoral manoeuvre.’

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/statements/2026-05-30/joint-statement-aukus-defence-ministers-meeting

 

[thatsamguy]

Well that's an interesting change. All 3 virginia's are to be used boats, instead of the previously planned 2x used block 4 + 1x new (assumed) block 6 without the block 5 extra vls. It does say "proposed" so maybe not yet finalised.

That would reduce the amount of sea days taken from the american fleet too.

The Deputy Prime Minister and Secretaries welcomed the proposed approach to streamline Australia’s acquisition of Virginia-class submarines (VCS), simplifying supply chain management, operational and maintenance requirements, and maximising cost efficiencies. This approach would enable Australia to acquire three in-service VCS in lieu of a mixture of new and in-service VCS variants.

Ref: https://www.minister.defence.gov.au...int-statement-aukus-defence-ministers-meeting

 

[spoz]

I don't really care if I upset any so called "Pro's".

Maybe you don’t care but some of us, those who have been professionally involved with submarines, do.

Or, we may have been involved in building ships or commanding them. Or spent many years maintaining or operating them. Or have done the strategic planning for ADF operations. Or participated in them. Or have been involved in any of the many other arcane activities which go to collectively being a Defence Force. And it is conceivable that we may know a thing or two about those subjects in which we have been participants. Like any professional area, it is a normal courtesy to use the correct language and terminology when discussing the subject, provided you know them.

 

[Lofty_DBF]

Maybe you don’t care but some of us, those who have been professionally involved with submarines, do.

Or, we may have been involved in building ships or commanding them. Or spent many years maintaining or operating them. Or have done the strategic planning for ADF operations. Or participated in them. Or have been involved in any of the many other arcane activities which go to collectively being a Defence Force. And it is conceivable that we may know a thing or two about those subjects in which we have been participants. Like any professional area, it is a normal courtesy to use the correct language and terminology when discussing the subject, provided you know them.

I've done most of the things you mentioned and I'm a submariner so I will call them Subs if I wish. And I'm also a verified defence pro.
So no need to get upset my skimmer mate.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

News out of Shangri-La Dialogue will see Aus get 3 used Virginias(likely all block IV) and 0 new.

I was always sceptical that the RAN would get Block V or later boats. For a start, those blocks have a lot of VLS space, which means having to buy a lot of missiles to fit in there to make them worthwhile - assuming the intent was to be able to have more than one at sea at a time.

Just selling Block IV boats is a fair compromise. They can still fire 12 missiles each, and there are plenty that have been in service for at least a few years so there would be little concern about defects. It would also avoid depriving the USN of those newer boats that have have a lot of VLS space.

 

[Reptilia]

I was always sceptical that the RAN would get Block V or later boats. For a start, those blocks have a lot of VLS space, which means having to buy a lot of missiles to fit in there to make them worthwhile - assuming the intent was to be able to have more than one at sea at a time.

Just selling Block IV boats is a fair compromise. They can still fire 12 missiles each, and there are plenty that have been in service for at least a few years so there would be little concern about defects. It would also avoid depriving the USN of those newer boats that have have a lot of VLS space.

Virginia Block V and VI, 140m long has the 4 vpm modules to hold an additional 28 missiles.
The block VII we were supposed to get in 2038 I believe is without the 4 vpm, so 115m like blocks I, II, III and IV. No chance they could have completed blocks V and VI before 2038.
Dont think we see a block VII, probably a new submarine class after block VI.

U.S - 4x Block I, 6x Block II, 8x Block III, 7x Block IV + 12x Block V, 9-10 Block VI.
AUS - 3x Block IV, + option for 2 more.

 

[SammyC]

News out of Shangri-La Dialogue will see Aus get 3 used Virginias(likely all block IV) and 0 new.

Also on pillar II

‘Pillar II – Advanced Capabilities

The Deputy Prime Minister and Secretaries reaffirmed the critical importance of accelerating the delivery of advanced capabilities under AUKUS Pillar II. They announced the first AUKUS Pillar II Signature Project: developing cutting-edge payloads and enabling systems for AUKUS partners’ Uncrewed Undersea Vehicles (UUVs), with delivery starting in 2027. This project is intended to significantly enhance AUKUS partners’ ability to protect critical national seabed infrastructure; deploy cutting edge surveillance, reconnaissance, and strike capabilities; conduct logistics operations; and bolster superiority in anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare, mine countermeasures, electronic warfare, and contested littoral manoeuvre.’

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/statements/2026-05-30/joint-statement-aukus-defence-ministers-meeting

Interesting update. It makes better sense, I don't know why they didn't start with this. If we had one boat with twice the life of the other two it would mean that we would have a single orphan asset for about 15 years. That's a logistical nightmare. This enables a simpler transition to the eventual AUKUS boats.

I am interested in the payload agreement. I imagine this is very secret squirrel stuff, however we have been discussing what might form the future payload for a Ghost Shark, and it looks like this is starting to be shaped. I wounder how central Anduril are to this.

Anduril got a commitment for the Barracuda missiles from the US Government recently, I wonder if their Copperhead torpedo could be in the mix.

Also and most importantly, why did Anduril name their air product after a fish, and their undersea product after a land snake. This is doing my head in.