Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[spoz]

Not entirely. What was in place at Osborne was the ship lift, a small number of construction buildings and both the ASC HQ and the AWD Systems Centre, used by the CoA and some contractors. From memory the whole thing, from a brown fields site, cost about $600m in 2007 dollars, split between the CoA and the State government. The expansion for Hunter added the two very large assembly halls (complete with robotics), a much larger paint shop, and a large number of miscellaneous facilities, including warehousing, accomodation for NCB, and the new HMAS Encounter facilities. It also built the new systems grooming centre at St Kilda. It was a very major expansion.

 

[Morgo]

Osborne already had most of the infrastructure in place from the Hobart build, they just added a new assembly hall and auxiliary buildings for the Hunters (Osborne has plenty of land available unlike Henderson).
Henderson needs significant new infrastructure to handle much larger vessels but lack of land means they have build out over the water as well as upgrading existing.

So why don’t we build our ships somewhere where there is space for shipyards then, rather than waste tens of billions of dollars?

 

[Stampede]

I was surprised how far along they are with the new Evolved Capes for RAN(2xOrdered November 2023) and ABF(2xOrdered in December 2024)

Pic 1 - 225(Cape Schanck) - accepted by defence last week.
Pic 2+3 - 226(Cape Hawke) - the last RAN Evolved Cape, due Q1 2026.
Pic 2+4 - First Evolved Cape under construction for ABF.

(Minor vessels)End 2026 = 10xCape class PB, 11xEvolved Cape class PB, 3xArafura class OPV.

Likely an order for more Q4 2025…

Still begs the question
Order more Capes or Arafura’s or a mix of both?

Cheers S

 

[spoz]

Without wanting to create controversy, because the WA lobby within the Federal Government is stronger than the SA. The constant provision of work to, and apparent favouring of, Austal is part of that. I’ll leave Volk to describe how good a shipbuilder Austal actually is.

 

[Stampede]

Just looking at the difference between the 30mm rounds on the Boxer and the 25mm rounds of the ASLAV, and comments that it a game changer, I am wondering why we would stick with the 25mm bushmaster on the Arafura class.
Pic from Australian Gov Defense website

View attachment 53506

A lot of commonality between the 25 and 30mm on a typhoon bushmaster mount.
Why this has not been a priority upgrade across the fleet I don’t know.
Seems a no brainer for significant firepower in quick time.
Be it a patrol vessel or LHD or any vessel in between this short ranged capability needs prompt attention.

We don’t need to wait for the Hunter Class to make this call across the fleet

Cheers. S

 

[spoz]

Physically it probably wouldn’t be all that difficult although ammunition handling arrangements would also need to be modified. But all these guns are software controlled so there will need to be a degree of modification of that, To the ballistic profiles of the types of shell common to the 25 and introduction of that for ones that are not common if nothing else. Suspect there are higher priorities.

 

[hauritz]

I was surprised how far along they are with the new Evolved Capes for RAN(2xOrdered November 2023) and ABF(2xOrdered in December 2024)

Pic 1 - 225(Cape Schanck) - accepted by defence last week.
Pic 2+3 - 226(Cape Hawke) - the last RAN Evolved Cape, due Q1 2026.
Pic 2+4 - First Evolved Cape under construction for ABF.

(Minor vessels)End 2026 = 10xCape class PB, 11xEvolved Cape class PB, 3xArafura class OPV.

Likely an order for more Q4 2025…

The Cape class seem to be the only vessels we can churn out quickly. If war were to break out this boat would probably be the modern equivalent of the Bathurst class, at least in terms of how fast we could bash them out.

Still begs the question
Order more Capes or Arafura’s or a mix of both?

Cheers S

For the above reason I think we probably should have a class of OPV/corvette sized vessels that could be mass produced in a national emergency.

 

[Reptilia]

Still begs the question
Order more Capes or Arafura’s or a mix of both?

Cheers S

-More Evolved Capes will be ordered for ABF. (9 more by 2030 according to Austals pipeline.)
-No chance of more Arafuras, DSR cut it to 6 from 12.
-The 19 Evolved Capes and 6 Arafura make up the 25 minor vessels in the DSR.(2 additional ECapes for training.)
-GPF accelerated timeline > 3 Frigates in service 2030-2034.

 

[iambuzzard]

The Cape class seem to be the only vessels we can churn out quickly. If war were to break out this boat would probably be the modern equivalent of the Bathurst class, at least in terms of how fast we could bash them out.



For the above reason I think we probably should have a class of OPV/corvette sized vessels that could be mass produced in a national emergency.

The problem with Capes is they're virtually unarmed.

 

[ADMk2]

Just looking at the difference between the 30mm rounds on the Boxer and the 25mm rounds of the ASLAV, and comments that it a game changer, I am wondering why we would stick with the 25mm bushmaster on the Arafura class.
Pic from Australian Gov Defense website

View attachment 53506

I believe in military parlance it is known as cash, a lack thereof...

The RAN conducted a "revised threat assessment" of the Arafura class (which we know only thanks to ANAO... ) since it was first built. It seems now as if they have somehow managed to work out that the threat is lower now than it was when the design with it's more capable 40mm gun was initially selected - despite what our actual defence minister keeps saying about our threat environment - so much so that an old 25mm gun that has been in-service for 2 decades already is now seen as "appropriate to address the threat".

 

[Stampede]

I believe in military parlance it is known as cash, a lack thereof...

The RAN conducted a "revised threat assessment" of the Arafura class (which we know only thanks to ANAO... ) since it was first built. It seems now as if they have somehow managed to work out that the threat is lower now than it was when the design with it's more capable 40mm gun was initially selected - despite what our actual defence minister keeps saying about our threat environment - so much so that an old 25mm gun that has been in-service for 2 decades already is now seen as "appropriate to address the threat".

Yes a strange dynamic.
Putting aside the patrol vessels the Hunters are getting a 30 mm not a 25mm because the later is deemed not as inadequate.
With much of the fleet currently having the 25mm and a relatively easy pathway to upgrade it’s difficult to understand why this has not happened.
It cannot be dollars because in defence terms this is a relatively cheap undertaking.
Defence acknowledges a problematic world and constantly stress the challenges of time to capability.

The need for inner defence upgrades is validated by current real world scenarios yet we plod along with a dated option.

Too much focus on big ticket AUKUS stuff and not enough on common sense

Ukraine / Russia conflict yet again shows the importance of prudent simple cheep solutions to challenges.

Need more emphasis on the agricultural can do solutions

Rant over

S

 

[Tasman]

Nice to see HMAS Stalwart back in the water and spending time in Hobart during Battle of Britain commemoration.

Tas

 

[Morgo]

Without wanting to create controversy, because the WA lobby within the Federal Government is stronger than the SA. The constant provision of work to, and apparent favouring of, Austal is part of that. I’ll leave Volk to describe how good a shipbuilder Austal actually is.

It’s an outrageous waste of money - and not a peep out of our journalists about it.

 

[76mmGuns]

Just looking at the difference between the 30mm rounds on the Boxer and the 25mm rounds of the ASLAV, and comments that it a game changer, I am wondering why we would stick with the 25mm bushmaster on the Arafura class.
Pic from Australian Gov Defense website

View attachment 53506

Chuck Hill's US Coast Guard Blog has mentioned this issue every few years. There's a video on YT I've seen but can't find with a simple search on YT that Chuck links that shows the 30mm is far superior. I also can't understand why the 25mm is still used, besides being a logistics issue that the Aussie military thinks isn't a big priority

“Weapons Effectiveness Testing–25 vs 30mm” Revisited

I am resurfacing this old post from 2017, because our weapons effectiveness is still an issue. I also reformatted a couple of sentences to bold type face, so the points would be harder to miss. Hop…

chuckhillscgblog.net

 

[Stampede]

Chuck Hill's US Coast Guard Blog has mentioned this issue every few years. There's a video on YT I've seen but can't find with a simple search on YT that Chuck links that shows the 30mm is far superior. I also can't understand why the 25mm is still used, besides being a logistics issue that the Aussie military thinks isn't a big priority

“Weapons Effectiveness Testing–25 vs 30mm” Revisited

I am resurfacing this old post from 2017, because our weapons effectiveness is still an issue. I also reformatted a couple of sentences to bold type face, so the points would be harder to miss. Hop…

chuckhillscgblog.net

Great vid regardless of age.

It’s a weird thing.
Navy acknowledges the need for a light weight mount in the form of the Typhoon Bushmaster.
They mount it on a broad range of vessels from patrol boats to LHDs,destroyers and supply vessels. They acknowledge the future will be 30mm going forward with the Hunters yet they see no urgency at a time when every bit of rhetoric is about urgency and perception of threat.

Have I missed something ?





Cheers S

 

[OldTex]

The Cape class seem to be the only vessels we can churn out quickly. If war were to break out this boat would probably be the modern equivalent of the Bathurst class, at least in terms of how fast we could bash them out.

One reason they can be churned out quickly is because they are not a complex design, compared to frigates. Another possible reason maybe that they are not built to full naval standards but to more commercial ones (others more familiar with the PBs can provide a better idea).

 

[Reptilia]

Evolved Capes are ok, not bad, not great.
RAN needs a much more capable PB post 2030 but they are good enough for the ABF.
Hopefully in time they all are transferred over and the Navy get an upgrade. (something better than the Arafura class)

 

[koala]

Great vid regardless of age.

It’s a weird thing.
Navy acknowledges the need for a light weight mount in the form of the Typhoon Bushmaster.
They mount it on a broad range of vessels from patrol boats to LHDs,destroyers and supply vessels. They acknowledge the future will be 30mm going forward with the Hunters yet they see no urgency at a time when every bit of rhetoric is about urgency and perception of threat.

Have I missed something ?





Cheers S

Makes me question if our Frigates are tasked with SLOC duties, would our OCV and Patrol boats even be able to defend against the Chinese (so called) fishing fleet?

 

[iambuzzard]

Yes a strange dynamic.
Putting aside the patrol vessels the Hunters are getting a 30 mm not a 25mm because the later is deemed not as inadequate.
With much of the fleet currently having the 25mm and a relatively easy pathway to upgrade it’s difficult to understand why this has not happened.
It cannot be dollars because in defence terms this is a relatively cheap undertaking.
Defence acknowledges a problematic world and constantly stress the challenges of time to capability.

The need for inner defence upgrades is validated by current real world scenarios yet we plod along with a dated option.

Too much focus on big ticket AUKUS stuff and not enough on common sense

Ukraine / Russia conflict yet again shows the importance of prudent simple cheep solutions to challenges.

Need more emphasis on the agricultural can do solutions

Rant over

S

Good rant, and accurate.

 

[ADMk2]

Great vid regardless of age.

It’s a weird thing.
Navy acknowledges the need for a light weight mount in the form of the Typhoon Bushmaster.
They mount it on a broad range of vessels from patrol boats to LHDs,destroyers and supply vessels. They acknowledge the future will be 30mm going forward with the Hunters yet they see no urgency at a time when every bit of rhetoric is about urgency and perception of threat.

Have I missed something ?

Cheers S

About the only thing I can think of is that we manufacture 25mm ammunition in country and we have a long established sustainment and training system for it across Army and RAN…

The M242 25mm Bushmaster is not a bad gun at all. 2/14LHR were engaging targets in Afghanistan at over 3000m with it and we have all seen what Bradley’s armed with the M242 have been able to achieve against even very heavy armour in Ukraine.

But it doesn’t (currently) have a programmable air-burst munition nor a proximity fused ammunition nature in 25mm, which is it‘s biggest drawback, arguably “particularly” in a naval environment.

I am guessing the RAN, like so many parts of ADF just hasn’t fully appreciated the drone threat and why the modern range of Northrop Grumman 30x173mm rounds are so advantageous…