This has always been my thoughts, Australia is already short on qualified tradespeople, and it takes 4 years for an apprentice to be qualified and around 10 years to be professional, we are short on qualified personal across the whole country, doesn't matter how big a shipbuilding plant is, without the skilled workers nothing will get built faster.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
- Thread starter OPSSG
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iambuzzard
Well-Known Member
If a hot war starts we'll be redirecting people from elsewhere.
In a hot war, yes, we can build the hulls from steel, but will we be able to get all the other logistics, radars, VLS systems, guns, sensors, engines, gas turbines and the other millions of parts that make a warship.
Just throwing it out there, but how many parts and components would be in a frigate/destroyer? forget the pointy ended stuff, from the dunny flusher, laundry, kitchens, mess rooms to the bilge pumps and anchor chains, plus the rest, I would guess at 10 million, just food for thought as there is so much on these ships, would be a huge logistical nightmare, not only to procure the systems but to get parts and maintain the systems
Everyone's thoughts?
iambuzzard
Well-Known Member
Agreed. We need to up the drumbeat NOW!
Can we import a bunch of spaniards?
I am hoping the Japanese will be helping us soon
Takao
The Bunker Group
Sorry, will we?
Even during 1941/42, there were protected trades/jobs. Just who are we redirecting from where?
We have cut our trades down to such an extent that many of the people that a shipbuilder needs are also needed to keep the nation running. I don't think that the assumption that there is a bunch of people that can be rapidly redirected holds water.
Building ships requires workers, but not millions. More recently military ship building has been so haphazard, that many trades come up through civilian ship related industries or dual role industries. There is a limit to how many people are working in a shipyard directly working on building a ship.
The issue is many of these workers aren't located in the ship building area. There just isn't the ability to create so many workers in such density. Apprentices aren't just multiplying in water, So many would require relocation, from interstate and interstate relocation doesn't always stick and often is very difficult these days, also different top end management or low end apprentice.. Which is why doing blocks outside of the shipyard may be more useful than just trying to build a mega shipyard, bigger than we already have. Also having some distribution of the capability makes it more resilient as well. A fire, a blackout, pandemic, economic crisis, plus having options in other locations that are desirable is useful, your aren't just locked in both employee and employer geographically. People are more likely to relocate if they are already working on a project with a branch or a contractor on that project.
Many trades also tend to burn out. Your not building trades that are going to work for ASC for 40 years. It's not just trades, its semi professionals, which is something Australia and its AQF doesn't do very well. Advanced Diploma and Associate degree. Key people with experience, but also sit in between front line trades and Engineers and project management. I had an argument with a leader of the Attack class program about this stuff.
IMO I think WWII style conscription is unlikely, and in modern society, it wouldn't work. It only worked in WW2 because the female workforce basically came out of of the wings and picked up the slack. That isn't possible any more, they are already working. I don't think Australia can scale its military in the same way, warfare isn't the same, society isn't the same.
These days, machines are huge part of the fight. Drones, smart munitions etc have a huge outsized impact. Workforce needs to be prepared to produce that.
The Japanese and the koreans do most of this themselves. We should definitely talk to them and the europeans about what Australia can do that is either a bottleneck or a area the global supply chain is fragile. The Japanese and the Koreans are actively trying to have out of their nation duplication of supply lines, because in a fight they may not be able to function, and certainly won't be able to scale.
The issue is many of these workers aren't located in the ship building area. There just isn't the ability to create so many workers in such density. Apprentices aren't just multiplying in water, So many would require relocation, from interstate and interstate relocation doesn't always stick and often is very difficult these days, also different top end management or low end apprentice.. Which is why doing blocks outside of the shipyard may be more useful than just trying to build a mega shipyard, bigger than we already have. Also having some distribution of the capability makes it more resilient as well. A fire, a blackout, pandemic, economic crisis, plus having options in other locations that are desirable is useful, your aren't just locked in both employee and employer geographically. People are more likely to relocate if they are already working on a project with a branch or a contractor on that project.
Many trades also tend to burn out. Your not building trades that are going to work for ASC for 40 years. It's not just trades, its semi professionals, which is something Australia and its AQF doesn't do very well. Advanced Diploma and Associate degree. Key people with experience, but also sit in between front line trades and Engineers and project management. I had an argument with a leader of the Attack class program about this stuff.
IMO I think WWII style conscription is unlikely, and in modern society, it wouldn't work. It only worked in WW2 because the female workforce basically came out of of the wings and picked up the slack. That isn't possible any more, they are already working. I don't think Australia can scale its military in the same way, warfare isn't the same, society isn't the same.
These days, machines are huge part of the fight. Drones, smart munitions etc have a huge outsized impact. Workforce needs to be prepared to produce that.
We make almost nothing of that stuff anymore, and that we do, we are reliant on others. However, neither can pretty much anyone else. Also how many VLS and radars and gas turbines are you intending to develop, build and deploy in the actual war. Many of these are realistically going to be made from logistic stockpiles. Stockpiling 1000 CPUs, is a lot cheaper/faster than building a $60billion semiconductor fab factory. These could already be stockpiled and automatically refreshed and updated through existing retail/wholesale channels if we were clever.
The Japanese and the koreans do most of this themselves. We should definitely talk to them and the europeans about what Australia can do that is either a bottleneck or a area the global supply chain is fragile. The Japanese and the Koreans are actively trying to have out of their nation duplication of supply lines, because in a fight they may not be able to function, and certainly won't be able to scale.
A slight tangent, but this is why I hate Engineers Australia. By allowing them to subvert the professionalisation of engineering to dictate who and what an engineer was they removed the career paths for every potential engineer who didn't become one thought the completion of a four year university degree.
We lost pathways taken by many of my older colleagues and mentors. We lost pupillage, we lost those who came up through trade and technical pathways, we lost everyone who learnt on the tools, went to night school and sat professional boards to be certified.
This impacted, not only those who eventually worked their way up to engineer, it disincentified talented people from doing a trade as there was no longer a pathway.