Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[alexsa]

Folks, remember nobody in the public domain knows what the fit out of the Hunter will be. We do know from Senate estimates that it will be bigger than the reference design. Until the data is released we have no clear idea of the number of cells noting the Mk 41 count 'appears' to be 32. It may be possible that will increase or be supplemented by other means (Sea RAM or the like). Even those writing for ASPI do not have access to this information.

The Hunter is the preeminent ASW design. Something that will be important in a world well supplied with submarines.

This discussion is getting well off the rails by a lot of ill informed speculation. Please base the discussion on the facts we know. If your are going to start suggesting 'hull plugs' and a minimum of 64 cells you will need a cogent argument based on data....... not fantasy guess work. This tread will be moderated on that basis.

alexsa

 

[spoz]

The approval of the design is the technical approval, and will be the result of the Systems Design Review, which is always a formal project milestone and was announced earlier this year. It has nothing to do with the contract to actually build the ship; although of course it is a necessary precursor. There are normally two further stages before the design is finally settled, Preliminary and Critical Design Reviews. I have no idea whether that is the case for Hunter, although I presume it is. Each of the Reviews takes the design to another level of detail. The build process can, to some extent, be started after SDR if there is a desire to but normally nothing really significant is done until after CDR.

 

[Stampede]

Folks, remember nobody in the public domain knows what the fit out of the Hunter will be. We do know from Senate estimates that it will be bigger than the reference design. Until the data is released we have no clear idea of the number of cells noting the Mk 41 count 'appears' to be 32. It may be possible that will increase or be supplemented by other means (Sea RAM or the like). Even those writing for ASPI do not have access to this information.

The Hunter is the preeminent ASW design. Something that will be important in a world well supplied with submarines.

This discussion is getting well off the rails by a lot of ill informed speculation. Please base the discussion on the facts we know. If your are going to start suggesting 'hull plugs' and a minimum of 64 cells you will need a cogent argument based on data....... not fantasy guess work. This tread will be moderated on that basis.

alexsa

To the layman like myself I kind of wonder what do you actually get when you select an off the plan design.
The winning Global combat ship looks good on paper and was select for three professional navy's.
It must offer something.
The Brits are first off the line with construction started and hopefully a commissioned ship early this decade.
So do you get a CAD design of a complete ship that respective customers just add bits to the internals within the margin of space and weight or something else!!!!!!

Is the ship one percent finished or 99 percent finished or something in between?

It's often said with defence purchases that we don't want to mess around too much with existing products as specialization adds to risk and cost.
Some Australianisation however is inevitable.
So to clarify I am guilty of posting the ABC linked site questioning the current project.
I am however of the opinion that the BAE Global ship on paper and timing "looks like/looked" like the best choice for the RAN.
There is however probably a lot that is unknown in the public forum.
My take
Given the size of the ship is larger than the Hobart Class it is difficult not to see it having at the very least, the same weapons fit out in type and numbers....... !
I guess time will tell.

If its still "just a CAD design", I'd still play around with the Hanger / Mission bay space to have those hanger spaces side by side and not in tandem.
It is meant to be after all primarily a ASW vessel that also does general duties.
Still have the mission bay, just play with the space.



Cheers S

 

[Bob53]

You think that I am way to sensitive? I have a job to do and I do it regardless of you or others like it or not. If you have a problem about a Moderator you take it either with them or another Moderator by PM, not in the open forum. To quote a certain Gunney, I am not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally.

I thought it fair enough that you banned me publicly then I could question it in the same forum. I have no issue with you personally as such. In fact I like a lot of your comments and input, but you do seem to take the "I have a job to do" part quite a bit more zealously than the other mods.

My original point wasn't political in any way shape or form, it was just stating a fact whereas many of the comments I highlighted were critical political and you did not raise any concern. Happy to leave it at that if I'm still here after this post. If not I bid adieu!

 

[Redlands18]

Italian cruiser Vittorio Veneto - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Italian Helicopter Cruisers built in the 60s and 70s are possibly a better comparison to a Type 26 then a Burke , similar displacement and a similar size Missile Armament to a Hunter(if it is 32 cells) heavily maximised for ASW work but with a decent Area AAW, where the Veneto carried a large number of Helicopters the Type 26 will be carrying UAVs and USAVs

 

[Going Boeing]

Folks, remember nobody in the public domain knows what the fit out of the Hunter will be. We do know from Senate estimates that it will be bigger than the reference design. Until the data is released we have no clear idea of the number of cells noting the Mk 41 count 'appears' to be 32. It may be possible that will increase or be supplemented by other means (Sea RAM or the like). Even those writing for ASPI do not have access to this information.

The Hunter is the preeminent ASW design. Something that will be important in a world well supplied with submarines.

This discussion is getting well off the rails by a lot of ill informed speculation. Please base the discussion on the facts we know. If your are going to start suggesting 'hull plugs' and a minimum of 64 cells you will need a cogent argument based on data....... not fantasy guess work. This tread will be moderated on that basis.

alexsa

This article indicates that the Hunters will be fitted with 48 VLS Cells (Mark 41) with another 24 VLS Cells which I believe are the Mark 57 version - there is a significant typo in the article because they use a gun designation instead. I don’t know where they sourced their info as those who know are tight lipped.

Hunter Class Frigate

 

[alexsa]

This article indicates that the Hunters will be fitted with 48 VLS Cells (Mark 41) with another 24 VLS Cells which I believe are the Mark 57 version - there is a significant typo in the article because they use a gun designation instead. I don’t know where they sourced their info as those who know are tight lipped.

Hunter Class Frigate

It that is true it would be nice, however, I will be waiting for the completion of the design process noting the article does not provide any references from official sources for that information. It could be pure speculation and time will tell.

 

[Redlands18]

This article indicates that the Hunters will be fitted with 48 VLS Cells (Mark 41) with another 24 VLS Cells which I believe are the Mark 57 version - there is a significant typo in the article because they use a gun designation instead. I don’t know where they sourced their info as those who know are tight lipped.

Hunter Class Frigate

That article is from 2019 and has them at 9700t Full Load, at least a year before anyone started talking 10,000t. It has them entering service between 2025 and 2030. Yea Mk 45 Mod 4 is the 127/62mm Gun. What "newer Type 26" is supposed to mean I have no idea.

 

[Volkodav]

I agree.

I got banned for saying this on the army thread. It was just a fact about who appointed Cosgrove.

But again my point was really about the ABC loves a defence target and like to sully reputations. In this case I expect it will be Sir Peter Cosgrove who was a LNP nominated Governor General.(is the target)


Then I read these comments that just got a bit of green texta....

• I would go on to say that Labor should have ordered eight Collins as originally planned, that they should have tendered the FFGUP only for Newcastle and Melbourne, while ordering a replacement for the Perth Class DDGs and the US built FFGs
• There was also a dumb idea to replace the Leopard with extra LAVs that never happened, and oh yes, the M-113 upgrade, that is Labors fault, they turned down on offer of Marders from Germany.
• This is a defence discussion board, not a Scomo and Peter Potato head fan club page. They have screwed up, they continue to screw up, but why? What can be done to prevent similar screw ups in the future, irrespective of which bunch of narcissistic, morons are on the treasury benches?
• The answer is an independent and accountable public service that actually has the resources to do its job.
• I bet I could list more Labor defence screw ups than you can.
• Like I said the problem wasn't political but while you are on the topic, the Frazer government decided not to replace Melbourne before the election but didn't announce it. Declassified Cabinet papers from the time show this.
• To roll the clock back a bit further, I also clearly remember under the Whitlam ALP Government, the new Def Min, Lance Barnard, canceled the RANs DDL project in mid to late 1973.
• (PS, First on my list is when the newly elected Hawke ALP Government didn’t proceed with the replacement of the carrier HMAS Melbourne.)

Stingray you need to replace Nagi as he is way too sensitive or get him a green crayon. Your response was way more sensible.

Great effort, piss off a mod and completely miss the context of the post being quoted.

I was accused of being politically partisan for criticising the decisions of the current government so I levelled the playing field be demonstrating my past criticisms of decisions made by the other side of politics when they were in power. I am like Nagati in that I have a real issue with deliberate misinterpretation and BS.

 

[ngatimozart]

Great effort, piss off a mod and completely miss the context of the post being quoted.

I was accused of being politically partisan for criticising the decisions of the current government so I levelled the playing field be demonstrating my past criticisms of decisions made by the other side of politics when they were in power. I am like Nagati in that I have a real issue with deliberate misinterpretation and BS.

Thanks. Much appreciated and I thinking about my response.

 

[Volkodav]

Gutted? Maybe trimmed a bit but possible cut from the wrong crew? Size and Shape of the APS

The issue is the makeup, levels and assignment i.e. location of personnel. There is a desperate shortage of APS 3 and 4 admin and support staff in general and of EL and SES (i.e. competent senior managers) in the regions. There are a ridiculous number of APS 6 so called middle managers either doing nothing because they have found a nice little niche where they can delegate all their work to others or burning out because they are doing the jobs of an APS 4 5 and 6 rolled into one, usually at a desk while the 6 with nothing to do has an office (cue stereotype of lazy ex SNCO) and spends all day playing games on his phone and surfing the net.

 

[Volkodav]

The Hunter class design has been approved for construction.

From the Magazine: HUNTER FRIGATE DESIGN APPROVED FOR CONSTRUCTION - APDR

The Hunter class frigate program has received quite a bit of criticism lately – including from APDR – but prime contractor BAE Systems says that much of this has been misplaced.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

If the designers and CAD guys have done their job properly the construction phase should be a more trouble free then the Hobart class. The ship will be built with a digital twin which should allow the builders to streamline the whole build process.

If they have done their jobs really well then who knows we might even see he project move ahead of schedule.

During the Hobart construction there wasn't a set baseline. Quite often design issues resulted in a halt to work, local engineers would devise a solution, alter the drawings and send them to Navantia for approval, which was required before work could resume. The only real improvement from bringing Navantia in on the build was delays became their fault so they would sign off the fixes sooner.

My understanding is BAE is using a full 3 D model that even has the functionality of being able to simulate fabrication, consolidation, installation and outfit, i.e. everything can be trialled digitally before it is done in reality, with a number of pilot and prototype builds being done to validate the digital to actual processes.

 

[alexsa]

During the Hobart construction there wasn't a set baseline. Quite often design issues resulted in a halt to work, local engineers would devise a solution, alter the drawings and send them to Navantia for approval, which was required before work could resume. The only real improvement from bringing Navantia in on the build was delays became their fault so they would sign off the fixes sooner.

My understanding is BAE is using a full 3 D model that even has the functionality of being able to simulate fabrication, consolidation, installation and outfit, i.e. everything can be trialled digitally before it is done in reality, with a number of pilot and prototype builds being done to validate the digital to actual processes.

I understand the digital Shipyard 4.0 has that capability and the systems also covers ongoing maintenance, repair and modifications. Others closer to the project would know more and I am relying on the BAE blurb.

Australia’s first digital shipyard | Newsroom | BAE Systems | Australia

In my past profession I have been involved in merchant vessels built old style (draftsmen working of a master plan) and early digital. There was a massive improvement in efficiency in the digital yard even down to plate cutting plans that minimise wastage. Changing plans was also significantly less difficult as the system mad consequential alterations to all relevant plans.

 

[Going Boeing]

My understanding is BAE is using a full 3 D model that even has the functionality of being able to simulate fabrication, consolidation, installation and outfit, i.e. everything can be trialled digitally before it is done in reality, with a number of pilot and prototype builds being done to validate the digital to actual processes.

I believe this is a derivative of the CATIA software that Boeing has been using since it designed the B777. It has the capability to allow for dimensions of the maintenance engineers thus ensuring that all parts that may need replacing can be reached without lengthy dismantling of other components.

Boeing B777 CATIA

 

[Rock the kasbah]

Japan Commissions the Name-ship of New Mogami-Class Multirole Frigate

Notably, the Mogami class will boast the first unmanned underwater vehicle (UUV) and unmanned surface vehicle (USV) deployed on a Japanese frigate.

thediplomat.com

22 of those jobbies
Comes across as a bit cheaper than the hunter @ $322 mil. and you can put the alphabet in front of the title which is important.
From memory the Japanese know a little about boats
Just makes a person think
That's all

@Rock the kasbah

Please explain how this fits into the RAN requirement and addresses the base requirements of the RAN. It may be a good looking vessel but:
1. Does it cover the ASW role envisaged for the Hunter
2. Is it better in the AAW role noting the Hunter is being proposed with a comprehensive radar sensor and combat suite.
3. Does it have the same range and offensive capability.

Something that looks good and is cheap is not necessarily the best choice. I do expect a response. If you cannot justify this I will delete your post, issue a final warning and award some points.

Mods have been warning everybody that suggested solutions need to meet the RAN requirement. Last time I looked 'good looking' and 'cheaper' were not included.

alexsa

 

[Redlands18]

Japan Commissions the Name-ship of New Mogami-Class Multirole Frigate

Notably, the Mogami class will boast the first unmanned underwater vehicle (UUV) and unmanned surface vehicle (USV) deployed on a Japanese frigate.

thediplomat.com

22 of those jobbies
Comes across as a bit cheaper than the hunter @ $322 mil. and you can put the alphabet in front of the title which is important.
From memory the Japanese know a little about boats
Just makes a person think
That's all

Actually being inducted into the Mine Warfare force so it appears its primary role is going to be as a MCM Mother Ship with USuVs and UUVs but with the ability to also deal with Minelaying Vessels and Submarines and switch to Escort duties as well.

 

[DDG38]

Japan Commissions the Name-ship of New Mogami-Class Multirole Frigate

Notably, the Mogami class will boast the first unmanned underwater vehicle (UUV) and unmanned surface vehicle (USV) deployed on a Japanese frigate.

thediplomat.com

22 of those jobbies
Comes across as a bit cheaper than the hunter @ $322 mil. and you can put the alphabet in front of the title which is important.
From memory the Japanese know a little about boats
Just makes a person think
That's all

As a sailor your constant reference to boats makes me think you're referring to subs. Something to remember, they carry boats on ships. Military terminology is important, especially on military discussion boards. Just sayin'.

 

[Stampede]

Japan Commissions the Name-ship of New Mogami-Class Multirole Frigate

Notably, the Mogami class will boast the first unmanned underwater vehicle (UUV) and unmanned surface vehicle (USV) deployed on a Japanese frigate.

thediplomat.com

22 of those jobbies
Comes across as a bit cheaper than the hunter @ $322 mil. and you can put the alphabet in front of the title which is important.
From memory the Japanese know a little about boats
Just makes a person think
That's all

Not saying its a ship for the RAN; but it does give a good example of the very clean lines that seems to be the trend on modern warships.
Also note Phalanx is out and SeaRam is in. Probably another trend going forward.

Cheers S

 

[alexsa]

I believe this is a derivative of the CATIA software that Boeing has been using since it designed the B777. It has the capability to allow for dimensions of the maintenance engineers thus ensuring that all parts that may need replacing can be reached without lengthy dismantling of other components.

Boeing B777 CATIA

You need to justify this claim as it suggests it is a Boeing product and that CATIA is the digital shipyard. CATIA is a software package for design and construction. The connection with Boeing appears spurious. Certainly Boeing may use the package noting it is related to Dassault

The Digital Shipyard Opportunities and Challenges (flinders.edu.au)
Design Engineering | CATIA – Dassault Systèmes (3ds.com)

Many systems use COTS products to develop systems. It does not mean that it is a derivative of the package but it may use the product to produce the actual system.

I look forward to your response.

 

[oldsig127]

I believe this is a derivative of the CATIA software that Boeing has been using since it designed the B777. It has the capability to allow for dimensions of the maintenance engineers thus ensuring that all parts that may need replacing can be reached without lengthy dismantling of other components.

Boeing B777 CATIA

A valuable capability when it's necessary to extract errant bolts and bits and bobs left rattling around inside spaces after manufacture.

oldsig