Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Stampede]

I see the catch-22 there but where does that leave us? Is it a threat that we prepare for or do we do nothing in the hope we dont make them up-arm the fleet? I mean, wouldnt doing something that makes them react be better than just letting them do whatever they want unopposed?

I think this area of possible contingency needs to be explored.
Yes, no golden answer but for a maritime response that basically has two options.
Gunned up major warship or under gunned Cape Class patrol boat. This appears a very limited range of options to the complexity both military and political to the task presented.

I omitted the OOP as it’s fire power is the same as the Capes and it’s without a respectable sized UAV.
Also we only have one in service.

So far China has played nice with us

What if they don’t!

Cheers S

 

[Reptilia]

RAN
2025 / 2035
7 / 0 Anzac class GPFs
3 / 3 Hobart class AWDs
0 / 2 Hunters ASWFs
0 / 3 Upgraded Mogami GPFs
1 / 6 Arafura class OPVs
10 / 10 Evolved Cape class PBs
2 / 2 Canberra class LHDs
1 / 1 Choules LPD
2 / 2 Supply class AORs

A gigantic capability leap of 3 vessels.
Tier 1 3 to 5
Tier 2 7 to 3
Tier 3 11 to 16

15-20 years before we see a significantly more powerful Navy, I think more can be done in the short term. Buy existing ships(F100 Spain?) or more numerous new ships off an existing production line(Japan/Korea?) before 2030.

 

[Todjaeger]

15-20 years before we see a significantly more powerful Navy, I think more can be done in the short term. Buy existing ships(F100 Spain?) or more numerous new ships off an existing production line(Japan/Korea?) before 2030.

Can more be done? Ans. Probably, though whether or not there is real value in some of the options is debatable.

I see no good reason for Australia to purchase any of the F-100 frigates from Spain, and a few reasons not to. The newest Spanish vessel was laid down almost 20 years ago, whilst the oldest, F-101 was commissioned into the Spanish Armada 23 years ago. These are not new vessels and not to RAN spec, with limited space/displacement for upgrades as well as less service life remaining.

As for purchase more/new vessels from active yards in either Japan, S. Korea or both... this could be done, but unless either/both countries were willing to allow Australia to 'jump' the build slot queue, deliveries to the RAN would likely happen some time after 2030 and that is if orders were placed now.

All of this is also ignoring the difficulties that Australia would likely face trying to integrate a number of new designs from different countries/yards at the same time, never mind being able to operate and maintain the various weapon and shipboard systems the different designs have.

The final issue as I see it has to due with personnel. The RAN only has so many people able to serve aboard ship. The current plans expect the RAN to expand over the next 20-25 years by several major warships, which should allow time for more personnel to be recruited whilst existing personnel build the skills of junior officers and enlisted so that they can take senior positions when there are more warships in the fleet.

If Australia were to suddenly have a large influx of vessels right now, pretty much the only option would be to decommission even more ANZAC-class frigates to try and provide enough warm bodies to serve aboard these proposed vessels.

 

[Reptilia]

The F105 is only 12-13 years old, it’s closer to Aus spec than the first 4. Could it be upgraded to a level good enough for RAN? I’m not sure but it was based in Aus for quite awhile for training. 4-5 months…

 

[Todjaeger]

The F105 is only 12-13 years old, it’s closer to Aus spec than the first 4. Could it be upgraded to a level good enough for RAN? I’m not sure but it was based in Aus for quite awhile for training. 4-5 months…

The F105 was commissioned in October 2012, but laid down in June 2007... so like I mentioned, not exactly a new vessel.

Also, the RAN's Hobart-class DDG's which themselves are newer, are about to undergo modernization upgrades which would suggest that the F105 would likewise really to have something similar done in order to stay relevant. This still is ignoring the differences in ship fitout between RAN vessels and the Spanish Armada, including even things like signage most likely needing changing.

I do understand with potential threats and conflicts on the horizon, the interest in the RAN expanding. Unfortunately though, there just are not very many options available to do so rapidly, never mind effectively.

Even if Australia were to get the F105, it would most likely just be used to replace a currently serving ANZAC-class frigate rather than be used to increase the overall fleet size.

 

[Reptilia]

The F105 was commissioned in October 2012, but laid down in June 2007... so like I mentioned, not exactly a new vessel.

Also, the RAN's Hobart-class DDG's which themselves are newer, are about to undergo modernization upgrades which would suggest that the F105 would likewise really to have something similar done in order to stay relevant. This still is ignoring the differences in ship fitout between RAN vessels and the Spanish Armada, including even things like signage most likely needing changing.

I do understand with potential threats and conflicts on the horizon, the interest in the RAN expanding. Unfortunately though, there just are not very many options available to do so rapidly, never mind effectively.

Even if Australia were to get the F105, it would most likely just be used to replace a currently serving ANZAC-class frigate rather than be used to increase the overall fleet size.

Fair enough, just an Idea.

Figured
-Hobarts are going through major upgrades, it would make some sense to upgrade a 4th right after.
-Spain are not interested in increasing the defence budget beyond 2%, the rest of Europe is.
-Navantia are building 5 F110s with potentially 2 more planned. All ahead of schedule. First launched in 3 days, 2027/28 service.
-Navantia will build another Cantabria AOR(possibly 2), the same as the Supply class from next year. We have 2 back in service now, a possible transfer with some added $$$.

 

[Todjaeger]

Fair enough, just an Idea.

Figured
-Hobarts are going through major upgrades, it would make some sense to upgrade a 4th right after.
-Spain are not interested in increasing the defence budget beyond 2%, the rest of Europe is.
-Navantia are building 5 F110s with potentially 2 more planned. All ahead of schedule. First launched in 3 days, 2027/28 service.
-Navantia will build another Cantabria AOR(possibly 2), the same as the Supply class from next year. We have 2 back in service now, a possible transfer with some added $$$.

One likely issue with the F105 is that it would not only likely need an upgrade, it would not be able to have the same upgrade as the Hobart-class since they have different fitouts and the Hobart-class is at least several hundred tons greater displacement at full load. Having to develop an entirely new upgrade for a single vessel would likely be both expensive and risky.

I am rather doubtful that the RAN would want more Spanish-built Supply-class AOR's, and quite possibly anything else built in Spain either.

Having said that, the only way that Spanish F110's might be available in any sort of useful time would be if Spain sold the ones they have on order and already under construction to Australia. New orders placed at this point would likely have delivery after the Mogami-class order with Japan. At this point I would also remind people that the F110 design itself did not even seem to place with regards to SEA 3000, so does not really look like something Australia wanted.

 

[iambuzzard]

I see the catch-22 there but where does that leave us? Is it a threat that we prepare for or do we do nothing in the hope we dont make them up-arm the fleet? I mean, wouldnt doing something that makes them react be better than just letting them do whatever they want unopposed?

Like I mentioned, there do not seem to be any good solutions.

Australia might be able to increase the combat capabilities of the various patrol assets and then use them to threaten non-compliant PRC vessels but there are several potential downsides to this though.

Increasing the combat capabilities of the ECCPB, the ACPB and/or the Arafura-class OPV could all be done, but that would take time, cost money, and still not deliver any sort of real, warfighting capability. Even worse, the PRC would likely have an easier time arming (or re-arming, for those vessels which are ex-PLAN warships) their vessels so that any force match Australia managed to achieve with minor warship is either negated, or left with the PRC having the capability overmatch. Worse still than that is the spectre of what could happen should an actual confrontation occur which led to hostile fires getting exchanged. I tend to suspect 37 mm fire from a CCG patrol frigate would do rather bad things to an aluminum-hulled ACPB or ECCPB, even if either of those could be fitted within something like Spike NLOS.

Something which needs to be remembered in any discussion about increasing the armament of a patrol vessel like Australia has, is that these vessels were not really designed as combat vessels. This means that many of the damage control features aboard a combat vessel are going to be absent, and likely difficult if not impossible to build back into a vessel during major yard work. Something like installing a magazine of a size suitable to support a larger calibre gun, large gun mounting, or even boxed missile launchers could prove problematic. There would also most likely need to be some upgrades to a vessel's sensors and CMS. Again, these are things which can be done but take time and are not cheap.

Lastly, with Australia not having limitless resources, one needs to contemplate what is a better approach. Up-arm patrol vessels beyond what they were designed or intended for, or direct the resources which would be needed to achieve such upgrades towards building up the capabilities and numbers of proper RAN warships?

Me being me, I would rather the resources get directed towards proper RAN combatants.

Acquire more than 11 Evolved Mogamis and keep the line going at an accelerated pace like the Japanese are doing. If they are launching 3 a year surely we can do 2!
If the balloon goes up we will need them, and fast!

 

[Reptilia]

One likely issue with the F105 is that it would not only likely need an upgrade, it would not be able to have the same upgrade as the Hobart-class since they have different fitouts and the Hobart-class is at least several hundred tons greater displacement at full load. Having to develop an entirely new upgrade for a single vessel would likely be both expensive and risky.

I am rather doubtful that the RAN would want more Spanish-built Supply-class AOR's, and quite possibly anything else built in Spain either.

Having said that, the only way that Spanish F110's might be available in any sort of useful time would be if Spain sold the ones they have on order and already under construction to Australia. New orders placed at this point would likely have delivery after the Mogami-class order with Japan. At this point I would also remind people that the F110 design itself did not even seem to place with regards to SEA 3000, so does not really look like something Australia wanted.

1x 48 cell F105 with current 85% commonality with the Hobart is better than a new F110 with 16 cells imo. (in the short term.)

 

[StevoJH]

Acquire more than 11 Evolved Mogamis and keep the line going at an accelerated pace like the Japanese are doing. If they are launching 3 a year surely we can do 2!
If the balloon goes up we will need them, and fast!

It all comes down to the willingness of the GOTD to spend the necessary funds. Anything is possible with enough investment.

Even a significant increase in Hunter Class construction or speeding up SSN-AUKUS.

 

[StevoJH]

1x 48 cell F105 with current 85% commonality with the Hobart is better than a new F110 with 16 cells imo. (in the short term.)

I would suggest better to make the necessary investment to speed up Mogami and Hunter class construction.

That investment could include targeting shipbuilding workers from the UK/Germany/US/Japan/Korea for recruitment.

 

[Reptilia]

I would suggest better to make the necessary investment to speed up Mogami and Hunter class construction.

That investment could include targeting shipbuilding workers from the UK/Germany/US/Japan/Korea for recruitment.

Hunter drumbeat to 1 year or 18 months still = post 2034 for follow on ships.
Mogami drumbeat to 1 year still = post 2034(the shipyard needs to be upgraded which will take 3-5 years).

Question is what can be done within the next 10 years…
F105, Japanese OPV, ‘lethal‘ Cape upgrades etc is something we could see within 3-4 years.
A fourth destroyer, up to 8 additional opvs and 21 Capes with a 25mm and 4 NSM is a nice little capability boost by 2030.
+Speartooth, Ghost Shark and Bluebottle production.