Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There were no significant issues with the Aegis system in the DDGs. Most of the issues encountered with the CS related to the Australian Tactical Interface; and in particular with the integration of certain items of kit that were “white boxed” until late in the productionisation process.

You have to book places in the Aegis production line; ours were based on the original schedules for the ships so they had to sit around for a while, but that was negotiated with the USN to minimise it as the program changed.
 
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iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
A couple of points on the Hunter build cost.

I suspect if we built any modern large warship in Osborne Park, the cost would be significantly higher than in its indigenous shipyard. Be that a Burke, baseline T26, Maya or KDXIII. So a big component of the price is because we elected to build a frontline cutting edge warship in Australia from scratch with almost no supply chain or deep experience. We will get a capability for that additional cost, which has use in the future, and it would be expected that future batches have a lower cost from learnt efficiencies. That capability is the ability to make weapons independently of others when our neighbourhood has deteriorated and our allies can't help us. We could have perhaps avoided this expense had we not stopped ship construction following the ANZAC and AWD builds. This is the cost of that short sighted decision. The question is do we value this or not.

Secondly, the Hunter is expensive because the equipment going into it is expensive. The drivetrain for instance is designed to a submarine noise suppression specification that is multiple times the price of a standard Naval drivetrain that you would see on say a Burke. The Brits pay a lot for this in their T26 as well. The question is do we want ships with high end equipment to be able to counter enemy systems that are also high end.

Thirdly the Hunter is expensive because we had limited ability to keep it as a specialised single capability platform as per the British T26. It had to be multi purpurse on top of the ASW specialisation because it will need to operate independently in hostile environments. This point drove all the changes for the more powerful combat system and radar package. Our Navy is simply not big enough for single purpose ships and we would need to accept a much larger fleet to enable specialised platforms. The Brits can afford to send a T45 and T26 on a joint deployment, but even then only just. I will note here that our single biggest limiting factor on the size of the Navy is people. The question is do you want a smaller fleet of multipurpose warships with a smaller crew footprint, or do you want to pay for a larger fleet of single purpose vessels that must operate together with a larger crew requirement.

The fourth point driving expense is a view that undersea warfare will become the most concerning future threat environment. At the moment we mostly see that air warfare is the dominant and we talk about missile defence and offence. In 10-15 years (when the Hunter will come online in numbers), I would view that will switch to staffed and autonomous submarines as our single biggest operational threat. Instead of VLS capacity, we will be talking about noise supression, sonar sensitivity, helo capability and drone interoperability. ASW is more expensive and complex than AAW. The question here is do you want a warship built for tomorrow's threat environment or today's.

If the answer is yes to the above questions, then it unfortunately costs a lot of money. I feel like much of the critism is akin to asking for a Ferrari because we want to go professional racing, but expecting it to be the cost of a Hyundai.
Well said, Sammy
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
There were no significant issues with the Aegis system in the DDGs. Most of the issues encountered with the CS related to the Australian Tactical Interface; and in particular with the integration of certain items of kit that were “white boxed” until late in the productionisation process.

You have to book places in the Aegis production line; ours were based on the original schedules for the ships so they had to sit around for a while, but that was negotiated with the USN to minimise it as the program changed.
I keep trying to recall when Australia placed the orders for the Aegis and SPY-1 arrays which went into the Hobart-class but I have not relocated the announcements, I do recall though that it was quite early, likely before the design itself had been selected and other contracts signed. The first two SPY-1 panels were completed by 29 July 2008, which IIRC would have likely taken at least 18 months from the time the order was placed by Australia.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Arbitrary % of GDP as defense budget doesn't make sense because it does not take into account the size of the GDP (denominator) as well as the capacity to absorb the increase.

There's such a thing as too much money and not enough people to run all the new kit.
Don’t forget as the economy grows ( the tax take seemingly grows regardless of the economic growth …especially in Victoria but I digress) we seem to find money for a commensurate %increase in other areas although over the past 6 years it’s more often borrowed money. To me freeze spending where you don’t want it to grow and any additional tax take feeds to the areas where it’s wanted. Of course that will cause outrage but I would imagine to tax paying Australians who in the main seem to scratch their heads where all the money is going …it would be probably deemed palatable. The problem lies in that only about 50% of Australians pay tax and a large chunk of them get money back in subsidies like childcare and family allowance. So something like this may not have broad support.
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
I would suggest that rather than investing money in US shipyards that the money be invested into ASC in Adelaide. Offer to build Virginia class modules in Adelaide and ship them to the US for integration into the finished product. This would allow the workforce to be built up and get experience prior to SSN-AUKUS.

There are lots of things that money could be spent on. Starting with Boxer, Redback and K9 SPG’s. And yes, some sort of Air Defence network over major bases probably wouldn’t go astray.

There is just about time to develop a Hawk replacement, the UK and Japan could possibly be interested in a joint program. It would probably be an idea to develop a light fighter variant at the same time along the lines of Hawk 200 or the F/A-50.

Basically, spend any increase in spending on equipment, weapons and increasing industrial capability.
It would be a difficult to answer no. USA Yeah we are really serious about building more subs. OZ we can help build some modules here that will help you speed up delivery and we will help pay for more yard capacity in the US yards at the same. Time. We just want to be guaranteed a few second hand subs in the 30s…. USA…Ummmm
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I understood current U.S laws to prohibit U.S navy warships or major hull components in foreign shipyards under the Byrnes-Tollefson amendment
10 U.S. Code § 8679 - Construction of vessels in foreign shipyards: prohibition., there is also the Jones act which effects commercial shipping
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I understood current U.S laws to prohibit U.S navy warships or major hull components in foreign shipyards under the Byrnes-Tollefson amendment
10 U.S. Code § 8679 - Construction of vessels in foreign shipyards: prohibition., there is also the Jones act which effects commercial shipping
Yep. and until their pollies realize that the US needs allied foreign shipyards to help out, the USN combat and commercial ships needed for defence will be SOL.
 
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