Return of the battleship.

[My2Cents]

2: Metal Storm- Metal Storm is one of the greatest revolutions in firearms technology. The stacked bullets in the barrel allow for a ridiculously high fire rate. This would be a perfect Close-in Weapons System.

Metal Storm has its own problems.

• As a projectile system it is extremely short ranged, which is why so many navies are moving from guns (CIWS) to missiles (RAM).
• Next there is the weight issue. Metal Storm systems are lighter than guns with magazines for a few rounds, but as the ammunition supply increases you quickly reach a point where a conventional autocannon is lighter. This is important because it effects the size of the mount and the slew rates for aiming negatively for the CIWS role.
• Recoil is the final issue. Force due to recoil on the mount is (the recoil per round) x (the rate of fire) x (Factor for recoil reduction/control). Obviously the higher rate of fire puts a higher load on the mount, but Metal Storm also appears to be incompatible with all recoil control technologies. This means the mount has to be even more massive, less responsive, and unsuitable for the role.

3: Lasers- While Metal Storm would be fantastic as a CIWS, I believe it would be a secondary level system. The main system, I believe, would be chemically powered lasers that would be, theoretically, capable of destroying incoming threats as far away as it could see.

Right, a few thousand tons of highly toxic volatile halogen based chemicals being run through a hot complex apparatus sealed inside a box with your crew. If an attack ever penetrates the fuel storage your only option may be to immediately abandon the ship until decontaminated. Yes, the stuff is THAT NASTY.

Get with the program and use either free electron or solid state lasers.

 

[My2Cents]

1: While yes, their isn't much, (heck, nothing) in the budget for creating a highly expensive warship, we are already doing this with the Gerald R. Ford class of aircraft carriers. With the battleships, we already have the hulls and would only need to upgrade them. That could save billions. Undoubtably we will commissioning more Gerald Ford class carriers in the future. Instead of doing this, maybe we could recondition the battleships.

2: The advantage to a railgun and long range missile equipped battleship, is that it can strike from long ranges without putting people at risk as an airstrike from a carrier would do. The big advantage to battleships would be that it could take repeated poundings.

An alternative I thought of to reconditioning the battleships, would be to make a cruiser-sized vessel using lightweight armor (carbon nanotubes, titanium etc), nuclear power, railguns, lasers, Metal Storm and long range missiles.

That battleship hull you are “reusing” is the cheap part, representing a worth of less than $100 million out of a ship costing between $7 billion and $10 billion.

OK, now let’s fill it.

• The old powerplant is the wrong design, it cannot supply enough electricity. A nuclear plant of suitable size with shielding won’t fit, so an array of probably 10 to 12 gas turbine gensets will be needed, plus electric drives for the propellers. You will need to remove most of the superstructure to get suitable access to the engineering spaces, no loss since it will have to be completely redesigned to handle the air and exhaust flows for the gas turbines, the electronics, and the lasers.
• The main guns, and their turrets, get scrapped. The railguns need a completely different design. Some questions:
  • Are you going to still have all 3 turrets?
  • Are you sticking to 3 guns per turret? There are likely to be some interesting EMP issues between adjoining guns when firing. Also, the current turret enclosure design is non-metallic, possibly for a reason. Any thoughts on the effects that induced currents in the turret metal would have on the crews?
  • Are you going to stick with the current railgun design (64MJ, about equal in effect to the 155mm AGS), or expend money to develop something larger? COME ON! This is a BATTLESHIP! Needs something more appropriate, say in the range of 500MJ (12” equiv.) to 2,000MJ (16” equiv.)
• A full electronics fit including AEGIS for the defensive batteries
• Aviation Capabilities – You are replacing the carrier with a battleship, the CAP with SAMs, and the attack aircraft with railguns. The problems remain with the rest of the air wing you are losing, carriers bring a lot more than fighters and attack aircraft to the party.
  1. Where are you going to put the squadron of ASW helicopters? Because without them you aren’t just a target, you are a dead sunk ex-target. Ask any of the sub and torpedo advocates on the board.
  2. What replaces the AEW aircraft? Without them the sea-skimmer missiles will be able to get close without warning. They also perform surface search.
  3. You need space for the drones I expect you will be using to observe the fall of your shots.
• 200 to 300 long range AAMs (probably SM-6) to replace the fighter CAP, plus the shorter range stuff like ESSM and ASROC, then add the SM-3 and Tomahawk missiles. Let’s call it 400+ cells in the VLS. That’s a hell of a lot of deck space.
• The laser system, assuming FEL or SS design will probably have minimal impact, you are already rebuilding the entire superstructure where they will be housed.
• 4 point defense stations (CIWS+RAM), almost unnoticeable amid the VLS modules.

And you thought this would be simpler and CHEAP?

 

[StobieWan]

That battleship hull you are “reusing” is the cheap part, representing a worth of less than $100 million out of a ship costing between $7 billion and $10 billion.

OK, now let’s fill it.

• The old powerplant is the wrong design, it cannot supply enough electricity. A nuclear plant of suitable size with shielding won’t fit, so an array of probably 10 to 12 gas turbine gensets will be needed, plus electric drives for the propellers. You will need to remove most of the superstructure to get suitable access to the engineering spaces, no loss since it will have to be completely redesigned to handle the air and exhaust flows for the gas turbines, the electronics, and the lasers.

• 
  
  No indeed - the concepts of re-engining the BB's has popped up several times on the warships1 forum, with numerous contributions from people who've served on them, as well as input from the curator of one of the museum piece BB's.
  
  Summary, to get into the engine spaces, the biggest access way is about 40 inches wide, interrupted at regular points by a large grille capable of taking a 6 inch shell in it's stride. To get to those conduits, you'd have to remove the TLAM boxes and unweld the hatches underneath them. So, just to get into the engine spaces would be a few months of working with plasma cutters and handing up pieces of grille a bit at a time to give you a space barely large enough feed down a stripped down GT.
  
  Added to which, the museum curator (I forget his name, apologies..) felt that if you were planning on keeping the BB's in service, you'd have to haul them out of the water and reweld every seam on the hull - they've been in the water for sixty years, to keep them going for another sixty years, the hull will need a lot of attention.
  
  Just from that, the obvious conclusion is that it'd be cheaper and more effective to start with a clean sheet of paper. And that was the conclusion of someone who know's the BB's intimately.
  
  Best bet, build something new, on the lines of a Gator - it'll have to keep up with the Gators so a top speed of 25ish knots is fine, stick a RAM launcher each side, and a couple of 57mm's for CIWS, then get the guns sorted.
  
  With a bit of luck you might get the lot under 3bn. They'll be parked with the gators, over the horizon, out of sight and reach of the coast, covered by carriers and DDG's - and using their long range guns to provide NGFS.
  
  Nuclear powered railgun firing BB's are about as likely as the Yamato being reactivated as a spaceship.

 

[My2Cents]

Best bet, build something new, on the lines of a Gator - it'll have to keep up with the Gators so a top speed of 25ish knots is fine, stick a RAM launcher each side, and a couple of 57mm's for CIWS, then get the guns sorted.

With a bit of luck you might get the lot under 3bn. They'll be parked with the gators, over the horizon, out of sight and reach of the coast, covered by carriers and DDG's - and using their long range guns to provide NGFS.

Nuclear powered railgun firing BB's are about as likely as the Yamato being reactivated as a spaceship.

I agree with you completely.

I would suggest that for the bombardment guns they go back to the Vertical Gun System. It requires you have to use smart ammo, but that is the only way you can hit a target at 100km+. It is fix mounted in the hull so it cannot engage surface targets and has a minimum range around 40km. But you can mount it in a 3000 ton hull instead of a 14,000 ton Zumwalt.

 

[StobieWan]

I agree with you completely.

I would suggest that for the bombardment guns they go back to the Vertical Gun System. It requires you have to use smart ammo, but that is the only way you can hit a target at 100km+. It is fix mounted in the hull so it cannot engage surface targets and has a minimum range around 40km. But you can mount it in a 3000 ton hull instead of a 14,000 ton Zumwalt.

Irony of it being, the premise was that the USN needed to be able to shoot cheaper, unguided rounds, then ended up not buying any as the ammo capacity on the DDG-1000 was so limited.

But yes, battleship, bad idea, obsolescent on entry to WWII and they've not gotten any fresher.

 

[Todjaeger]

Nuclear powered railgun firing BB's are about as likely as the Yamato being reactivated as a spaceship.

Well, I guess we are going to get one then, if [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Row0rYFQCHs"]Space Battleship YAMATO - Trailer [English Sub] - YouTube[/nomedia] is any indication...

Seriously though, NGFS has a place in the modern navy, but that is a capability within an overall combat system. It is not something worth spending significant amounts of funding on re-inventing. Some R&D done to see about developing railguns, and if they can be made into viable weapons. Same goes for lasers.

To suggest though that a BB would take the place of a CVN at this point... Not happening.

-Cheers

 

[StobieWan]

Well, I guess we are going to get one then, if Space Battleship YAMATO - Trailer [English Sub] - YouTube is any indication...

-Cheers

Oh, I saw that when I was *tiny* -- I knew about the film when I made the comment

 

[Bonza]

Now the newest punter's idea has been well and truly shot to pieces...

Can I get a quick idea from senior members involved on whether they'd rather this thread be closed for all time so it stops coming back every few months with the same circular discussions?

 

[Belesari]

I think the ability to hit surface targets is mostly a secondary concern now.

The AGS was picked because it was supposed to be able to hit surface targets and fire unguided rounds. Both these things are now out of the AGS book of tricks so....

I think the big thing to understand is this. In the age of aircraft carriers, super subs, and missile ships what is the place, job, and design of a battleship.

Looking at the Guided missile destroyer its now the secondary ship of the line after the carrier in many ways. It is in most ways that count the same as a guided missile cruiser.It in no way looks, acts, or performs the same as the old destroyers except for one way. It provides escort for carriers from multiple surface, air, land and even submarine threats.

Any ship is what your willing to spend on it. It can be scaled up depending upon how much resources you are willing to spend on it. You can have a Supercarrier or a light carrier like the french, british or others have. While still carriers they perform differently and are far apart in terms of power.

A modern battleship need not be a yamato or even a Iowa. The days of single ship combat are over. Were even before the yamato met its end. The Bismarck showed this perfectly. Fleets control the surfaces of the oceans and the land and waters around them. It doesnt need masses of armor feet thick. It doesnt have to have 9 16in cannon...or 30.....

I think the largest we need even worry with would be something the size of a heavy cruiser in ww2.

But as i said it all depends upon what you want or are willing to spend. However for the moment atleast the age of the superdreadnoughts like the Yamato, Iowa's and others is over.

I agree with you completely.

I would suggest that for the bombardment guns they go back to the Vertical Gun System. It requires you have to use smart ammo, but that is the only way you can hit a target at 100km+. It is fix mounted in the hull so it cannot engage surface targets and has a minimum range around 40km. But you can mount it in a 3000 ton hull instead of a 14,000 ton Zumwalt.

 

[Belesari]

Maybe it needs a disclaimer. Its always wondered. Atleast no one is proposing submersible super carriers yet.

Now the newest punter's idea has been well and truly shot to pieces...

Can I get a quick idea from senior members involved on whether they'd rather this thread be closed for all time so it stops coming back every few months with the same circular discussions?

 

[Cadredave]

Now the newest punter's idea has been well and truly shot to pieces...

Can I get a quick idea from senior members involved on whether they'd rather this thread be closed for all time so it stops coming back every few months with the same circular discussions?

I agree with you Bonza this would be one of those threads that will keep coming back with the same old tired arguments...put us out of our misery and close it.

CD

 

[colay]

I agree with you Bonza this would be one of those threads that will keep coming back with the same old tired arguments...put us out of our misery and close it.

CD

I'm not a senior member but I feel the same way.

 

[My2Cents]

Unfortunately, if it is closed someone will start a new one within a couple months.

 

[StobieWan]

Ditto - not a member of the board but yeah, this one is done, poke it with a fork. We can deal with the next one when it surfaces. Ideally, a set of stickies on key fanboi SF concepts like walking robot fighting suits, nuclear powered battleships, that sort of thing, would be handy.

 

[Bonza]

That's enough for me, cheers for the input.

Thanks for playing all, thread is done.