Red Sea and the Houthis threat

[Big_Zucchini]

Unless you're delusional an seeing things which aren't there; I said nothing which indicated support for HAMAS.

You said Israel commits mass murder in Gaza. It is only possible to make such point if you support Hamas, particularly because it is a point that Hamas themselves created.

 

[Vivendi]

Really?

Yes, really (unless you continue asking questions like this )

 

[Feanor]

You said Israel commits mass murder in Gaza. It is only possible to make such point if you support Hamas, particularly because it is a point that Hamas themselves created.

This is simply not true. It is possible to make such a point if one genuinely believes (rightly or wrongly) that it happened. One can not support Hamas and still call out Israel for what one perceives as injustices. I understand your position is that this isn't true, and that's fine. Perhaps it isn't. But someone doesn't have to be a Hamas supporter to think otherwise. Hell, at the end of the day one can genuinely hate both sides.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

This is simply not true. It is possible to make such a point if one genuinely believes (rightly or wrongly) that it happened. One can not support Hamas and still call out Israel for what one perceives as injustices. I understand your position is that this isn't true, and that's fine. Perhaps it isn't. But someone doesn't have to be a Hamas supporter to think otherwise. Hell, at the end of the day one can genuinely hate both sides.

It is not a matter of hate. I have absolutely no problem with those who hate Jews/Israel. In fact I welcome them all.
It is a matter of facts. If a person tells a lie, it can be for 2 main reasons:
1. Unintentionally - the person is misinformed.
2. Intentionally - the person has an agenda.

If a person is misinformed, he can simply ask, and will be naturally open to changing him mind on the issue.
If a person is driven by agenda, then there really aren't many options to choose from.
What agendas may drive a person who is pro Israel?

• Anti-immigration.
• Judaism / Connection with Judaism.
• Zionism.
• Anti-terror.
• Anti-Islam.
• Secularism.
• Pro-LGBT.
• Pro-humanism.
• Technocracy.
• Democracy.
• Globalization.
• Progressivism.

What agendas may drive a person who is anti Israel?

• Communism / socialism.
• Islamism.
• Jihad.
• Racial supremacy (includes antisemitism).
• Anti-west.
• Anti-humanism.
• Ultra-conservativism.
• Theocracy.
• Autocracy.
• Ultra nationalism.

Of the above, the least common are racial supremacy and ultra conservativism which are coincidentally those least inclined to support Hamas. The rest do for the most part support Hamas, some on moral ground, others as a means to an end. There is therefore a significant overlap between those who lie specifically about Israel and those who generally oppose the west and support Hamas.

 

[Feanor]

It is not a matter of hate. I have absolutely no problem with those who hate Jews/Israel. In fact I welcome them all.
It is a matter of facts. If a person tells a lie, it can be for 2 main reasons:
1. Unintentionally - the person is misinformed.
2. Intentionally - the person has an agenda.

If a person is misinformed, he can simply ask, and will be naturally open to changing him mind on the issue.
If a person is driven by agenda, then there really aren't many options to choose from.
What agendas may drive a person who is pro Israel?

• Anti-immigration.
• Judaism / Connection with Judaism.
• Zionism.
• Anti-terror.
• Anti-Islam.
• Secularism.
• Pro-LGBT.
• Pro-humanism.
• Technocracy.
• Democracy.
• Globalization.
• Progressivism.

What agendas may drive a person who is anti Israel?

• Communism / socialism.
• Islamism.
• Jihad.
• Racial supremacy (includes antisemitism).
• Anti-west.
• Anti-humanism.
• Ultra-conservativism.
• Theocracy.
• Autocracy.
• Ultra nationalism.

Of the above, the least common are racial supremacy and ultra conservativism which are coincidentally those least inclined to support Hamas. The rest do for the most part support Hamas, some on moral ground, others as a means to an end. There is therefore a significant overlap between those who lie specifically about Israel and those who generally oppose the west and support Hamas.

I don't want to go down the rabbit hole, and political discussions are against forum rules. However the list you provided is not exhaustive. The most common anti-Israeli attitudes I've encountered in the real world come from left-leaning liberals who don't fall neatly into any of the categories you listed. Either way this isn't the point. You just switched from a deductive argument where you claimed it follows by necessity that if he argues Israel committed mass murder that he must support Hamas, to an inductive logical argument where you are now arguing probabilities. I need you to acknowledge that your initial claim was wrong and not simply change the argument. For context your initial claim was this;

You said Israel commits mass murder in Gaza. It is only possible to make such point if you support Hamas, particularly because it is a point that Hamas themselves created.

Obviously there is overlap between anti-Israeli and pro-Hamas attitudes. However you are simply wrong in this argument and you yourself recognize that, because in your response you shifted your logic completely.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

@Feanor
You make a solid case. However I will not change my general opinion of this yet - I have yet to find an exception to this rule.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yesterday i already saw on Youtube videos from Tribun News about an incident with the F221 Hessen. The videos were not clear and the comments/reports were confusing. They talked about that the German warship shot down an american MQ-9 UAV, but also that the fired missiles from the frigate malfunctioned and damaged the ship.

Now it seems these two incidents are connected.

Missile Woes For German Navy

The German Navy faces missile woes impacting the performance and supply for their air defence frigates used in the Red Sea.

www.navalnews.com

Edit: ive found the video.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Yesterday i already saw on Youtube videos from Tribun News about an incident with the F221 Hessen. The videos were not clear and the comments/reports were confusing. They talked about that the German warship shot down an american MQ-9 UAV, but also that the fired missiles from the frigate malfunctioned and damaged the ship.

Now it seems these two incidents are connected.

Missile Woes For German Navy

The German Navy faces missile woes impacting the performance and supply for their air defence frigates used in the Red Sea.

www.navalnews.com

To clarify: No American drone is said to have been shot down, nor are there reports of damage to Hessen from the two SM-2 missiles.

 

[kato]

but also that the fired missiles from the frigate malfunctioned and damaged the ship.

The explosion shown at the beginning - and again later - is from sister ship Sachsen's SM2 hangfire in 2018, complete with the original audio from then.

The MQ-9 Reaper was engaged by Hessen as an unidentified drone flying without IFF for which a RFI among the fleet and allies did not produce a positive identification (i.e. US Forces either declined or were unable to identify their own UAV in the area). The two SM2MR Block IIIA fired on it as a response failed "for technical reasons" (which i will not expand upon). Both missiles fell into the water.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The explosion shown at the beginning - and again later - is from sister ship Sachsen's SM2 hangfire in 2018, complete with the original audio from then.

The MQ-9 Reaper was engaged by Hessen as an unidentified drone flying without IFF for which a RFI among the fleet and allies did not produce a positive identification (i.e. US Forces either declined or were unable to identify their own UAV in the area). The two SM2MR Block IIIA fired on it as a response failed "for technical reasons" (which i will not expand upon). Both missiles fell into the water.

Thank you very much for your correction, it was totally not clear if those videos were indeed from the right incident.