RAAF F-35 Weapons

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Sorry if already mentioned, but this is news to me

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw070621_1_n.shtml

Janes work is copyrighted (so I was informed), so I'll just post the link.
Apparently recent JASSM test shoots are having less than spectacular results.
Given that JASSM was in the Super Hornet package recently purchased by the RAAF and presumably to be included in any RAAF JSFs - an interesting pickle if it gets cancelled.

rb

I guess they would just go SLAM-ER, the integration should be all done on the SH as the USN plans to operate it, SLAM-ER seems like a capable system and perhaps if air launched version was purchased maybe some ship based one as well.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry if already mentioned, but this is news to me

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw070621_1_n.shtml

Janes work is copyrighted (so I was informed), so I'll just post the link.
Apparently recent JASSM test shoots are having less than spectacular results.
Given that JASSM was in the Super Hornet package recently purchased by the RAAF and presumably to be included in any RAAF JSFs - an interesting pickle if it gets cancelled.

rb
JASSM's NOT in the Super Hornet package, JSOW is. JSOW is in service and performing well, and an anti-ship variant is in development. JASSM will go onto the classic Hornets under Project 5418.

I'm sure Boeing has been dusting off and polishing up its SLAM-ER proposal for the RAAF's classic Hornets in case JASSM bites the dust, although my contacts seem to think it will prevail, with LockMart getting a slap on the wrist and a kick in the pants to fix it.

Cheers

Magoo
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...Apparently recent JASSM test shoots are having less than spectacular results....
rb
It's not just recent ones, though they seem even worse than in the past, & the overall failure rate is 42%. At that rate, even firing two at every target gives you significantly less effectiveness than firing single Storm Shadows or (AFAIK) KEPD-350s, which suggests the much-vaunted lower price is somewhat illusory.
 

Rich

Member
Ozzy wasnt it you who called the F-35 a Lemon? It sounds like your on board now.



Forward air controlers will be drewling with the thought of SDB equiped F35's to play with, not to mention the interdiction capability. It'll make an A10 look like a WW2 Typhoon.

As far as the AAM thing. I was wondering how much a couple of ASRAAMS on the wingtips would comprimise the F35's LO at BVR anyway. Considering that the RAAF's F35's wil be tier 3 stealth (1 being B2/F22, 2 being USAF/UNS/USMC F35's, 3 being export F35's) i'm wondering how effective the RAAF's F35's LO will be in the WVR environment? I'm sure most threat radars wont be able to detect the frontal aspect of an ASRAAM at 50+NM, were the F35 will be able to shoot from. If this is the case then why not have the wingtip stations with ASRAAMS and the internal points with 4 AIM120D's. The F35 will still have a big advantage (huge when coupled with the wedgetail) in BVR. In WVR it will probably be vulnerable to IRST detection with or without X band LO (if the threat aircraft survives the long ranged ASRAAM shot which is doubtfull considering its capabilities).
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Ozzy wasnt it you who called the F-35 a Lemon? It sounds like your on board now.
Naaahhhh mate, i never said it was a bad platform, same as the SH, i never said that was a bad platform either. I never said we shouldnt buy the Sh & I never said we shouldnt buy the F35. What i did say is there are some threats the F35 might not be able to handle, however the F22 can, easilly. All i said was that i think its a bad idea for us to be relying on the F35 to do everything. In the CAS/BID role it will be the most capable platform ever flown. However i'm somewhat scheptical as to its A2A capabilities vs dedicated Air superiority fighters as capable as advanced flankers, and i'm allso concerned about its capabilities an interceptor, especially with the proliferation of ASM's and standoff weapons generaly throughout the region. In the role it was designed for it will be without peer, it should be very capable in most other roles too.

So just for those out there like agra who will catagorise all of your opinions just because you took a particular stance on a subject those are my opinions on the F35 and i think you'll find they're slightly different than Dr Karlo Kopps.
 

Rich

Member
Naaahhhh mate, i never said it was a bad platform, same as the SH, i never said that was a bad platform either.
My apologies. I'm going a little senile with age.

Personally I'd feel a little sorry for any SU's flying into the net-centric Aussie air defence machine. Most of all when the F-35 comes on line. Without enough fuel to maneuver the SU's wouldn't have much of a chance.

As in none!

And any enemy airfields within refueling range of those F-35s and cruise missiles would have an exciting few days.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
My apologies. I'm going a little senile with age.

Personally I'd feel a little sorry for any SU's flying into the net-centric Aussie air defence machine. Most of all when the F-35 comes on line. Without enough fuel to maneuver the SU's wouldn't have much of a chance.

As in none!

And any enemy airfields within refueling range of those F-35s and cruise missiles would have an exciting few days.
I have to admit i understimated the full effect of the Wedgetail/F35/AIM120D/JORN/High speed datalink combination. I was looking at things from a 2 v 2 perspective, and with ESM cued advanced IRST+Laser range finder, cueing BVR IR missile shots, The Flanker in a 2 v 2 sort of scenario would have a pretty good chance against an F35, since apart from the LO and avionics it outperforms it by a mile.

But as part of a networked system the story changes quite a bit. even in a squadron v squadron type of scenario were the flankers had an A50E, the RAAF squadron would shoot the sh*t out of the agressors. I didnt really apreciate the capabilities of the wedgetail, its not just AEW, it can be used as a fire controll radar for the F35's AMRAAMS. I never fully apreciated what effect this would have. Because of their lack of LO, and the radar performance of the wedgetail we will know were they are, and they wont know were we are. The F35's can launch at decent ranges of 60+NM without using their RADARS, so the only thing the Flankers ESM will have to detect is the datalink signal. They will know the Wdgetail's there, but they wont be able to touch it anyway, unless they get something like an R172 working and use it wisely, and its not disabled by an EA from the wedgetail. Then as the AIM 120Ds get close to going active the F35's hit the Flankers with an EA disrupting their communications and radar performance. All over. The wedgetail is the key componant and this combination will be very lethal. It would be even more lethal with the addition of some F22's to the mix.

However if this system ever brakes down and it devolevs into a 2 v 2 type scenario then the things arn't so one sided. Also when trying to stop a high altitude high speed penitration, or the growing cruise missile threat i dont think the F35 will cut it. The Japanese dont, thats why they consider the F22 as a vital part of their future force structure. They're not looking at a F35 only soloution, i doubt they ever even considered it. Because there are some roles the F35 cant cover like the F22 or even to some extent Typhoon, all the big players know this and have a multi tiered force structure, yet we wont. Personaly i dont like that reasoning and IMO we should be looking at incorporating at least 1 squadron of high performance air superiority fighters, priciplly (hopefully) some late build F22's, which would also fulfill the deep strike role much better than the F35.

Having said all that we cant turn this into annother F/A 18F's for the RAAF type thread, that one got shut down for a good reason, whcih was partially due to me.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
If Indonesia started to build a serious threat to continental Australia with air superiority fighters I think you would find F-22 would based in Australia or owned by Australia pretty quickly.

Honestly if Indonesia wants to play the air superiority game, they will lose. Australia is richer, better trained, better backed, better experienced. Short of basing planes from/of another country Australia is well safe.

I don't see that happening. Even if it does Australia will have superior numbers. First strike would be Australia destroying as many of these on the ground or as they arrive.

We need the F-35 more than we need the F-22 at this stage. When the F-111 are a long distant memory, the new navy ships are working, F-35B's are delivered and everything is looking sweet, then look at late run F-22, sure, when the superhornets are ready to move on, get 1 squad of F-22 export version. But this is 2020 at the earliest. By then UAV might be the go. Maybe pick up 40-50 of these, after all no pilots needed, fight in numbers.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
If Indonesia started to build a serious threat to continental Australia with air superiority fighters I think you would find F-22 would based in Australia or owned by Australia pretty quickly.

Honestly if Indonesia wants to play the air superiority game, they will lose. Australia is richer, better trained, better backed, better experienced. Short of basing planes from/of another country Australia is well safe.
regional threats extend to more than indonesia....... What about PLAAF?????

I don't see that happening. Even if it does Australia will have superior numbers. First strike would be Australia destroying as many of these on the ground or as they arrive.
indonesia isnt a threat at all, even if they bought their planned 48 SU30's and upgraded them with all the planned bits and peices they dont stand a cheance vs the RAAF in their own airspace let alone ours.

We need the F-35 more than we need the F-22 at this stage. When the F-111 are a long distant memory, the new navy ships are working, F-35B's are delivered and everything is looking sweet, then look at late run F-22, sure, when the superhornets are ready to move on, get 1 squad of F-22 export version. But this is 2020 at the earliest. By then UAV might be the go. Maybe pick up 40-50 of these, after all no pilots needed, fight in numbers.
Having the F35 as the basis for our force structure is a good idea, its much better value for money than an all F22 force. But both platfroms are designed to be part of an Hi Low mix, and will be by the USAF. I agree a perfect soloution would be to replace the SH with F22's.

As far as UCAVs are concerned, i'm not too sure they can just replace squadrons in our force structure. I'm deffinatly no expert in UUAV/UCAV's, but I was under the impression that the current doctrine for using them isn't as a direct replacement for manned platforms but as supplimentary systems to manned platforms. Like a pair of manned fighters controlling 4 UCAVs, sort of a rolling escort. They still need to be commanded by a human (thank god) and therefore there needs to be a maned fighter in the vacinity.

So i'm all in favor of more UCAV's but not in exchange for manned squadrons.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
But what would be more useful, a dozen F-22's or 30 or 60 UAV's we won't know until 2020 at the earliest.

PLAAF isn't quite in range yet. Until they get a carrier going, which may happen by 2020. Hence it would be an excellent idea to get our LHD all F-35B's upped by ~2017 or atleast some onboard to start training. Then it will be carrier battles or standoffs. I like the BPE LHD and think it could have the makings of a really good light carrier operating as many as 18 F-35B's. Enough to stand off a small (40,000t) catobar carrier and escort our forces around the sea.

F-35 can be upgraded, indiginous RAM coatings, engine upgrades, latest electronics, longer ranged and smarter munitions, backed by a nice carrier based AEW around 2020. Its the AEW part that is the tricky part, it may be a F-35B completely devoid of weapons, but loaded with radar.

Im all about keeping an open mind. But we don't need an F-22 now or at a fixed certain date in the future. If we doneed some, it would be on top of 80-100 F-35's we do need. So really its a seperate issue we can address later. We will know when this is because the US will approach Australia.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Sorry Occum, no F-22 Raptors for Japan...



USA to approve export variant of F-35




A "sanitised" aircraft design should be approved by year-end to sell the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to countries outside the original international partnership. The non-partner international variant is being approved ahead of expected Foreign Military Sales orders from Israel and Singapore, and as a new export campaign ramps up to target Japan.
The JSF joint programme office has forwarded its recommended design to each of the three US armed services buying the F-35 and final approvals from within the Office of the Secretary of Defense are expected "well before the end of the year", says Jon Schreiber, the US director of JSF international programmes.


Programme officials have also since mid-June received authorisation from US export control officials to release design studies to Israel that include the integration of unique weapon systems, Schreiber says. Israel has requested integrating its own air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons with the JSF, and "they will be able to do their own gap analysis", he says.


The Netherlands and the UK are set to become the first international buyers for the F-35 next year, with Italy to follow in 2009. All three countries are to buy one or two aircraft during low-rate initial production to participate in the operational testing phase.


Meanwhile, the US government has decided to offer the F-35 instead of the Lockheed F-22 as an option to meet Japan's F-X fighter requirement. Boeing is expected to offer the F-15E or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, with the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon also to be offered.


Courtesy of:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/06/28/215248/usa-to-approve-export-variant-of-f-35.html
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hmm, did I get this right?
Everybody except the original partners get a downgraded export version of the F-35.
So the offer for Japan is also not a full scale F-35.

I don't think the Japanese are very happy with that.
Hopefully this helps the EF offer. :)

I don't say that because of false national pride but because every additional EF user makes it more possible that developing of the EF goes further and makes updates cheaper so we might also see some of them. :D
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Hmm, did I get this right?
Everybody except the original partners get a downgraded export version of the F-35.
So the offer for Japan is also not a full scale F-35.

I don't think the Japanese are very happy with that.
Hopefully this helps the EF offer. :)

I don't say that because of false national pride but because every additional EF user makes it more possible that developing of the EF goes further and makes updates cheaper so we might also see some of them. :D
That certainly seems to be the case and seems to imply that perhaps "rushing in" to join the SDD phase might not have been quite the bad idea that those against Australia's plan think it is...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
That certainly seems to be the case and seems to imply that perhaps "rushing in" to join the SDD phase might not have been quite the bad idea that those against Australia's plan think it is...
Not to mention the opportunities for worksharing... I would presume that even some of the parts for "down-rated" F-35s would come from JSF participant nations.

-Cheers
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry Occum, no F-22 Raptors for Japan...



USA to approve export variant of F-35




A "sanitised" aircraft design should be approved by year-end to sell the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to countries outside the original international partnership. The non-partner international variant is being approved ahead of expected Foreign Military Sales orders from Israel and Singapore, and as a new export campaign ramps up to target Japan.
The JSF joint programme office has forwarded its recommended design to each of the three US armed services buying the F-35 and final approvals from within the Office of the Secretary of Defense are expected "well before the end of the year", says Jon Schreiber, the US director of JSF international programmes.


Programme officials have also since mid-June received authorisation from US export control officials to release design studies to Israel that include the integration of unique weapon systems, Schreiber says. Israel has requested integrating its own air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons with the JSF, and "they will be able to do their own gap analysis", he says.


The Netherlands and the UK are set to become the first international buyers for the F-35 next year, with Italy to follow in 2009. All three countries are to buy one or two aircraft during low-rate initial production to participate in the operational testing phase.


Meanwhile, the US government has decided to offer the F-35 instead of the Lockheed F-22 as an option to meet Japan's F-X fighter requirement. Boeing is expected to offer the F-15E or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, with the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon also to be offered.


Courtesy of:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/06/28/215248/usa-to-approve-export-variant-of-f-35.html
the Japaneses might be even be in for the EF replaceing the older F15J if they won't be getting even the full spec F35 that the partners nations are buying and the F22 isn't for export they might be even be interested in METEOR missile to replace the AIM7 [or am i too hopeful]
 

Brandon

New Member
Why do you guys in Europe want the Eurofighter to be sold to countries not in Europe? I mean, it is called the EUROfighter after all. I don't want the F-22 to be sold abroad because it is our top plane and we shouldn't have to share it. We built it, we own it, it's for us to play with and everyone else to admire. Why wouldn't you want the same to be said for the Eurofighter. Wouldn't you like to know that you Europeans have built a fantastic aircraft and it's defending only the EU and not others. If I lived in Europe, I would hate to build such a great aircraft only to be sold to other countries. I would like to know that it is only flying to protect the EU. I am very relieved that the U.S. has opted not to sell the F-22.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Why do you guys in Europe want the Eurofighter to be sold to countries not in Europe? ....
Money. Jobs. Keeping the companies which built it alive so they can keep building things for us to defend ourselves with. All the obvious reasons.

Do you object to F15, F-16, F-18, M1, Amraam, etc being exported? If not, why not?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry if I may sound harsh but that sounds like unreasonable patriotism. :rolleyes:

What do I get from others admiring our plane?

And as if Japan is not a reliable partner closely linked to the west.

Swerve also hit the point with stating that further exports will bring us money, jobs and makes further development of the EF more possible and cheaper.
The US sold nearly everything to Japan it wanted except the F-22.
And much more to other much less reliable countries.
And you are against us selling them the EF?
 

Ryttare

New Member
Why do you guys in Europe want the Eurofighter to be sold to countries not in Europe? I mean, it is called the EUROfighter after all. I don't want the F-22 to be sold abroad because it is our top plane and we shouldn't have to share it. We built it, we own it, it's for us to play with and everyone else to admire. Why wouldn't you want the same to be said for the Eurofighter. Wouldn't you like to know that you Europeans have built a fantastic aircraft and it's defending only the EU and not others. If I lived in Europe, I would hate to build such a great aircraft only to be sold to other countries. I would like to know that it is only flying to protect the EU. I am very relieved that the U.S. has opted not to sell the F-22.
Perhaps we Europeans belive that others than we have the right to defend themselves as we do. Also Europe isn't into waging wars all over the world so the risk of going to war with countries armed with European fighters are very small. But the main reason for not selling the F-22 on export is really to not disturb the sales of F-35.

By the way, Eurofighter isn't an EU project and there are actually two EU countries, France and Sweden, that has developed their own fighters.
 
Top