Protection of civilians

[Grand Danois]

What about the private contractors hired by the American and British governments spraying bullets on people in Iraq?? Why aren't they in uniform??
Why hasn't the U.S. prosecuted them under the Geneva convention.
U.S. government deploys these mercenaries herself and then you go on about rank, serial number and Geneva convention.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Having a different set of rules for others while a different ones for yourself is unfair and stupid.

Hezbollah usually deploys with full gear and uniform. Also Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's parliament due to the democratic elections which the U.S. was so happy to back up. It's quite hypocritic that the west harps about democracy but then starts organizing 'orange revolutions' and other assorted public thughishry to throw the elected representatives of the people out of office.

Private contractors operating in Iraq do not fall under the Geneva convention, but Iraqi law. Wether this is enforced is another matter.

 

[Grand Danois]

Hezbollah and Israel might be resorting to similar tactics however looking at casualty figures it is very evident who is targeting civilians.

Casualty figures are an expression of the difference in firepower, not of its deliberate use against civilians.

 

[Red aRRow]

Israel has a small population as such their military doctrine is sound. Protection of your own personnel comes first. As stated by a representative of the Lebanese Government stated on ABC Australian they have sided with Hizbollah as such they are in my opinion a formal Government as such they have no rights to make or set conditions for any ceasefire.

So you suggest they side with the party dropping bunker busters on their heads??

If the two captured Israeli personnel are alive put them on TV so the IDF can see they are alive, a sign of goodwill and the start to negotiations.

There are literally thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians detained in Israeli jails. No trial, no geneva convention no nothing.
What about them?

If any agreement does not contain the disarming of Hizbollah as ordered by the UN resolution, then one must question the validity of the UN in the current matters. If the UN can’t make their own resolutions valid then why bother to make them. The future of the UN is at stake in this current matter, not only have the UN allowed what the world thought was a state within a state to occur, now a terrorist coalition between the Lebanese Government and Hizbollah according to the representative for the Lebanese Government in a interview with Tony Jones on Australian ABC. I would think that the Lebanese Government would want to clarify their position on this matter prior to seeking international approval to deploy the LAF.

Any resolution which doesn't ask the IDF to withdraw from foreign territory is meaningless. The connivity with which America kept on delaying a ceasefire agreement during the initial weeks in order to let Israel continue its bombing campaigns cannot be hidden by now trying to pass half baked resolutions through the very same body (U.N.) where U.S. vetoes every other resolution which is deemed against Israeli interests; the same body whose resolutions have never been applied by so called 'world's largest democracy' even though 50 years have passed.

When Hizbollah conducted terrorism on the USMC and CIA during a peacekeeping mission in 1983 was this an ethical engagement. Any civilian death that has occurred and will occur in the future in the AO Lebanon is the fault of the dysfunctional Lebanese Government and their associates in crime Hizbollah.

The 'coalition of the willing' terrorists illegally occupying other countries and territories on false pretexts is a much more serious crime than any bombing of USMC or CIA occupiers. The 'coalition of the willing' along with the likes of Al-Qaeda is the biggest threat to world peace. Problem is nobody is there to stop them because of their might and power.

The fact is the psychological operations the terrorist have conduct on citizens of the worlds democracies by using civilians and murdering and torture of coalitions personnel no longer works as the psychological subjugate has be broken. The psychological key has been removed as such the terrorist doctrine will fail.

All the innocents would not be subjected to war if the Lebanese Government would allow a multi-national stabilisation force to be deployed to protect their citizens from the international terrorist organisation Hizbollah.

No life is more important than others. Do you think the millions which the imperialist coalitions has murdered in the name of democracy (Vietnam, Iraq, Palestine, Kashmir etc.) are less important than those who died in WTC, London or Madrid??

The thing is there is a hypocricy where one party seems to justify its actions while blaming the other side for everything. The real solution is the removal of injustice and occupations and to give humans their due rights of self determination. False democracies, applied forcibly and occupations are not the solution.

Violating laws and then expecting others to follow them is not going to work.

 

[Stryker001]

I wouldn’t classify the current operations in the southern AO as occupation it is an incursion to disrupt Hizbollah as such it is a self defence action. The IDF haven’t taken off the gloves as of yet, the criminals that are detained is so that the IDF does not have to fight and capture the same people over and over. Hizbollah are not concerned with the people detained by Israel as they are martyrs so alive in custody or dead is of no real consequence to Hizbollah. Israel as a sovereign country can recruit people of Jewish origins and others to fight for the IDF, various organisations can help fund humanitarian aspects to allow the Israeli Government funding to be diverted to military operations.

I’m saying that the Lebanese Government should side with the Lebanese Government and take responsibility for the control of their own country and prevent terrorists from operating within their boarder regions. As proven Hizbollah has been free to do as they please in Lebanon as such the validity of the LAF has to be questioned. If they couldn’t prevent the current build up what go can the LAF do now to control Hizbollah.

Israel will withdraw from their incursion when a responsible stabilisation force is deployed in the buffer zone. If 15,000 LAF attempt to move into the AO at present is this considered to be a build up of a hostile force for a sinister purpose, how many Hizbollah operators are embedded throughout the LAF.

CIA and USMC and the coalition of the willing including the UK and ADF, NZDF and nations operating under NATO command in Afghanistan are considered terrorist by Red aRRow, and then you would also consider Russia as terrorists due to their struggle against Islamic extremists also.

The terrorist doctrine is floored, to consider these criminals as freedom fighters is misguiding, by supporting the stance of Hizbollah is to legitimise their role in Middle Eastern political affairs. They as stated by the UN should be disarmed, WHY so a provocateur of violence and destabilisation can be sidelined so peace can exist between Israel and the surrounding countries.

The fact is these terrorists do not want to negotiate an amicable resolution to solve the Middle East crisis, as they wish to destroy Israel. The point is if that occurs who are next parts of the world to be targeted parts of Europe, South East Asia, the top half of Australian as JI have stated in the past, attacks on the American mainland, Russian to hand over Chechnya, the democratic nations of Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia the Philippines.

The Nazi thousand years Reich was defeated because of the tactics used by the Allies an example would be the death toll of civilians during that global conflict. The bombing of Dresden in conjunction with the soviet advance had a serious impact on the German war machine. Overall let’s say 300,000 to 500,000 German civilian had been killed during the bombing campaigns of cities. Would the world have been a better place and a safer place if the Nazi Reich had not been total destroyed by the Allies. The civilian death toll of Japanese citizens was in the order of 330,000 during the bombing of their cities.

So if we are in fact at war at present, which in my opinion we are at war the response in relation to civilian deaths has been minimal due to restraint by the coalition of the willing against an enemy that show us no mercy. And remember the Hizbollah use innocent civilians as human shields a tactic used by the war criminal Saddam Hussein. I remember an Islamic saying and ‘eye for a head’. Remember the current death rate in Iraq are Muslims killing Muslims, yet America lose personnel daily as the IDF have suffered casualties and other coalition members have also lost personnel. Then there are the civilians who have gone to Iraq to work in civilian roles.

It puts the current hysteria of coalition and IDF operations and civilian death toll into perspective in my opinion. That’s just my opinion everybody has one hence the reason a ceasefire agreement cannot be implemented.

Any innocent life that is lost is a failure of humanity and no one wants non-combatants to be killed or injured except Hizbollah and the States which sponsor terrorism. This is a war against criminals and thugs who hide behind religion, not against Islam. In my opinion radical Islam is not a religion at all.

 

[abramsteve]

You know what Red Arrow, as a citizen of a country which was and is a member of the 'coalition of the willing', I take offence to you describing us a terrorists and imperialists. If ever there was an example of a 'flamer' I would say this is it.

Maybe I shouldnt be so defencive, but the fact remains, I do not take kindly nor respect your opinions on my country.

As a forum bouncer I suggest you take a hard look at your comments.

 

[Red aRRow]

I wouldn’t classify the current operations in the southern AO as occupation it is an incursion to disrupt Hizbollah as such it is a self defence action. The IDF haven’t taken off the gloves as of yet, the criminals that are detained is so that the IDF does not have to fight and capture the same people over and over. Hizbollah are not concerned with the people detained by Israel as they are martyrs so alive in custody or dead is of no real consequence to Hizbollah. Israel as a sovereign country can recruit people of Jewish origins and others to fight for the IDF, various organisations can help fund humanitarian aspects to allow the Israeli Government funding to be diverted to military operations.

I think we need to look at the situation not with just the last 4 weeks in mind ..but the last 50 years. Israel's constant aggressive posturing and incursions and occupation of Lebanese land was the reason Hezbollah was formed in the first place. IDF has no right to go pick up anybody on suspicions and detain them indefinitely without trial. The way it has locked up even members of the Palestinian elected representatives is criminal conduct.
Hezbollah has called for release of the prisoners since long and has exchanged Israeli soldiers for Lebanese who were detained by Israel..so they do care about the people locked up and your point is just an excuse to somehow justify Israel's criminal actions.

I’m saying that the Lebanese Government should side with the Lebanese Government and take responsibility for the control of their own country and prevent terrorists from operating within their boarder regions. As proven Hizbollah has been free to do as they please in Lebanon as such the validity of the LAF has to be questioned. If they couldn’t prevent the current build up what go can the LAF do now to control Hizbollah.

Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government and now enjoys the support of almost all Lebanese. The LAF is an impotent force .... I think they should just integrate Hezbollah into LAF ..that would give them a quantum leap.

Israel will withdraw from their incursion when a responsible stabilisation force is deployed in the buffer zone. If 15,000 LAF attempt to move into the AO at present is this considered to be a build up of a hostile force for a sinister purpose, how many Hizbollah operators are embedded throughout the LAF.

As of now the only hostile force building up for a sinister purpose (and getting it's ass whooped) is the IDF. LAF is just ill trained and ill equipped. Hezbollah is a much more effective unit which also enjoys popular Lebanese support.

CIA and USMC and the coalition of the willing including the UK and ADF, NZDF and nations operating under NATO command in Afghanistan are considered terrorist by Red aRRow, and then you would also consider Russia as terrorists due to their struggle against Islamic extremists also.

You forgot to mention Iraq also. If countries invade other sovereign nations on lies and false pre-texts and that results in hundreds of thousands of deaths then it falls under my definition of the word terrorism. If sanctions result in million babies losing their lives for want of basic necessities then it falls under my definition of terrorism.

The terrorist doctrine is floored, to consider these criminals as freedom fighters is misguiding, by supporting the stance of Hizbollah is to legitimise their role in Middle Eastern political affairs. They as stated by the UN should be disarmed, WHY so a provocateur of violence and destabilisation can be sidelined so peace can exist between Israel and the surrounding countries.

Al Qaeda and Bush & co. may be a terrorists but you cannot use a broad brush to paint every group as a terrorist organization. Hezbollah is the elected representative of the people of Lebanon. Hamas is the elected representative of the people of Palestine. They have all the right to be involved in the political affairs of their respective nations /territories.

The fact is these terrorists do not want to negotiate an amicable resolution to solve the Middle East crisis, as they wish to destroy Israel. The point is if that occurs who are next parts of the world to be targeted parts of Europe, South East Asia, the top half of Australian as JI have stated in the past, attacks on the American mainland, Russian to hand over Chechnya, the democratic nations of Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia the Philippines.

ope LOLzzzzz. Enough with the paranoia. Hezbollah doesn't have any designs to take over the world (AQ or Bush may have though). Right wing extremism, be it Islamic or Christian, is a perversion which is dangerous as we can see from both the neo cons and AQ. Hezbollah, IMO, does not fall into this category.

The Nazi thousand years Reich was defeated because of the tactics used by the Allies an example would be the death toll of civilians during that global conflict. The bombing of Dresden in conjunction with the soviet advance had a serious impact on the German war machine. Overall let’s say 300,000 to 500,000 German civilian had been killed during the bombing campaigns of cities. Would the world have been a better place and a safer place if the Nazi Reich had not been total destroyed by the Allies. The civilian death toll of Japanese citizens was in the order of 330,000 during the bombing of their cities.So if we are in fact at war at present, which in my opinion we are at war the response in relation to civilian deaths has been minimal due to restraint by the coalition of the willing against an enemy that show us no mercy. And remember the Hizbollah use innocent civilians as human shields a tactic used by the war criminal Saddam Hussein.

Your war mongering is quite sad to see. Your tacit approval of civilian casualties as somehow necessary is revolting.
Israel's wanton destruction which it unleashed on Lebanon is evidence enough that no restraint is being shown. Uncle Sam just seems to wink and nod (and supplies bunker busters of course) while Israel continues its murderous campaign.
If war criminals such as Ariel Sharon can be elected by Israelis and dealt with by the Americans as allies and friends then Sadam Hussein shouldn't have been an exception. But of course he was just another thorn in Israel's side and uncle Sam had to do something about it (not to mention getting hold of sh*t load of oil in the process). So this hypocrisy being demonstrated is the real reason why people reataliate against Israeli and American interests.

I remember an Islamic saying and ‘eye for a head’. Remember the current death rate in Iraq are Muslims killing Muslims, yet America lose personnel daily as the IDF have suffered casualties and other coalition members have also lost personnel. Then there are the civilians who have gone to Iraq to work in civilian roles.

It puts the current hysteria of coalition and IDF operations and civilian death toll into perspective in my opinion. That’s just my opinion everybody has one hence the reason a ceasefire agreement cannot be implemented.

Any innocent life that is lost is a failure of humanity and no one wants non-combatants to be killed or injured except Hizbollah and the States which sponsor terrorism. This is a war against criminals and thugs who hide behind religion, not against Islam. In my opinion radical Islam is not a religion at all.

This is not a war. It's a campaign by Israel and Uncle Sam (with the assistance of scared E.U. countries sadly) to expand its influence over world resources of energy mixed with pseudo religious visions of apocalypse and some birth rights over 'holy lands'.
Yes, AQ is an extremist and terrorist organization but so is the IDF and the 'coalition of the willing'.
Bundling Hezbollah in this package for defending their country is stupidity.

 

[Red aRRow]

You know what Red Arrow, as a citizen of a country which was and is a member of the 'coalition of the willing', I take offence to you describing us a terrorists and imperialists. If ever there was an example of a 'flamer' I would say this is it.

Maybe I shouldnt be so defencive, but the fact remains, I do not take kindly nor respect your opinions on my country.

As a forum bouncer I suggest you take a hard look at your comments.

Just because somebody doesn't agree with your viewpoint doesn't make them a flamer. I am responding to the disgusting posts by some members who continuously advocate use of force and murder of civilians in the name of 'democracy' or some sick 'fight against radicalism'. They constantly lace their posts with bias and hypocrisy which is evident in each line they type.

 

[merocaine]

Your fighting a lonely battle there Red Arrow.

I find a lot of those arguements are pointless, they really depend on world view.
I think you have been pushed into defending Hezzbullah tactics because your opponents paint themselfs as whiter than white.
They say our intentions are good, therefore its a good Idea to follow them through.
Take Iraq, the intentions were good, destroy WMD, bring democrasy, and topple a dictator. What they got instead is a divided country, Iran strenghtened, civil war and breeding ground for islamic fundo nutters. To claim a defence of "well it was'ent our intention" takes the breath away.
The fact remains that the "coalition of the willing" is occupying a country, and has precipitated its collape. Claiming that you did'ent mean it is the defence of a child, wheter you ment it or not you have caused the deaths of nearly 100,000 people, perhaps you did not mean it, but your support of a reckless policy has caused there death nonetheless. I'm sorry steve it is a stain on Australia's Britian's and all those other countries who supported this criminal recklessness.

While Hezbollah will never give in, I suspect eventually when enough of its citizens are dying for lack of food, the nation of Lebanon will run up a white sheet. Its obvious to those of us from the Christian West that Hezbollah could care less about its civilian casualties, the sovreignty of Lebanon, the resolutions of the United Nations, or the articles of the Geneva Convention. Why should we care about them or their followers? Why give aid to people who hate us, and will never thank us?

Also Sea toby you shite on about the geneva conventions, yet advocate the mass starvation of the population of south Lebanon????
You betray yourself in the phrase Christian West, Large parts of the west are Muslim, Hindu, post christian, or just could'ent give a dame. Anyway what kind of christian avocates the starvation of populations as a way to get them to run up the white flag!!!
Your a dangrous man Sea Toby, those are the tactics of saddam hussian.

Edward Burke the conservative thinker said in reponse to the excesses of the French revolution, never swap an inperfect present for a theorticaly perfect future, I think it applys equally well to the sudden western craze for intervention.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I am responding to the disgusting posts by some members who continuously advocate use of force and murder of civilians in the name of 'democracy' or some sick 'fight against radicalism'. They constantly lace their posts with bias and hypocrisy which is evident in each line they type.

As opposed to yours obviously. Your posts have been different only in that they have supported "murder and the use of force" so long as it's by the "poor downtrodded radicals" against the West. It's a 2-way street and the sooner EVERYONE learns that the better the world will be.

So the West has a "sick fight against radicalism" eh? Hmm, doubt very much if the passengers on flights from Heathrow would agree with you there Red, in fact they probably think very much the opposite right about now. It truly would become a "sick fight" if the West were to use the "radicals" tactics against them.

The "radicals" mass murder attempts have luckily only been partially successful because they lack the werewithal to carry them out properly. The West has no such problems and if they adopted the same policy there would simply be NO radicals. They would be utterly destroyed and wiped off the face of the planet.

Don't lecture about a sick war. All sides are equally as culpable.

 

[Red aRRow]

Good post merocaine!!

As opposed to yours obviously. Your posts have been different only in that they have supported "murder and the use of force" so long as it's by the "poor downtrodded radicals" against the West. It's a 2-way street and the sooner EVERYONE learns that the better the world will be.

I am not advocating any mass murder tactics which the likes of Al Qaeda or the 'coalitions of the willing' usually indulge in. I am defending people's right to self defence in the face of decades of invasions and occupations.
It is a 2 way street in which both this so called 'coalition' as well as the likes of right wing radicals like AQ (which basically was created by CIA) are equally responsible.
But when it comes to this particular conflict going on right now in Lebanon I clearly do not side with the Israeli point of view.

So the West has a "sick fight against radicalism" eh? Hmm, doubt very much if the passengers on flights from Heathrow would agree with you there Red, in fact they probably think very much the opposite right about now. It truly would become a "sick fight" if the West were to use the "radicals" tactics against them.

The 'west' (coalition of the willing) has already been using such tactics since long. If we have memories longer than just 5 years then we would know what these so called preachers of peace have been upto. Literally millions have been murdered in this 'cause of democracy' (bullying others into submission). On one hand preaching democracy while on the other hand trying to topple elected representatives of the world using their intelligence agencies if they do not agree with their point of view, while all the time wearing a mask of democracy and continuous brainwashing of their masses using the media.

The "radicals" mass murder attempts have luckily only been partially successful because they lack the werewithal to carry them out properly. The West has no such problems and if they adopted the same policy there would simply be NO radicals. They would be utterly destroyed and wiped off the face of the planet.

This is a failure to understand the root causes of 'terrorism'. Nobody becomes a radical for fun. People are forced into such a mindset by circumstances, circumstances which, largely, rich western world powers have been creating in poor countries through their actions and for the fulfillment of selfish goals.

The 'West' can go around using it's military might and that would just create more radicals. Your assertion of ridding the world of radicals by force is, IMO, flawed as we can clearly see in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
This can also be seen in Lebanon. Israel is deploying huge amounts of firepower and has virtually levelled areas of southern Lebanon while hitting targets all over the country. But still they are losing soldiers daily and having average 150 rockets land on top of them.

Don't lecture about a sick war. All sides are equally as culpable.

Yes, that is why the people in the western democracies need to learn to vote responsibly as by electing war criminals they are also responsible for the war indirectly; while people in poor muslim countries need to concentrate on education, social reforms and economic progress...because peace can only be guaranteed through economical and military strength in this 'might is right' world.

 

[radiosilence]

put the rhetorics aside for a minute and look at the actual facts on the ground, the body counts of civilians and damages to infrastructures on both sides and that will tell who is doing what.

 

[Stryker001]

Now from an ethical perspective one has to establish what and who is classified as a non-combatant. Now as radical ‘criminals’ breed their children for martyrdom, are juveniles classified as non-combatants are their parents who indoctrinate this criminal sociopathic doctrine. I mean they are to believe they are born to die for the purpose of killing enemies for radicalised terrorist criminals. Generally westerners, Jew’s or anyone who refuses to conform to their sociopathic criminal views are targeted. Is this not a form of child abuse, should the UN protect children from psychological abuse.

What Hassan has done is what all criminal sociopaths who control sects is broken the basis of all religions the bond between families, the bond between mother, father and child.

Now by their own admission the radical criminals wish to be martyrs and are born to die in sociopathic criminal actions which have no true link to religion. Why do the Syrian Government show concern for non-combatants being killed, is that not the whole purpose of the indoctrination.

As this is the case ‘shock and awe’ bombing campaigns are what’s required to kill the enemy and protect our own troops from harms way it would be advisable in a hypothetical setting for large scale bombing campaigns similar to World War 2 aerial operations.

The criminal terrorists have our military machines fighting a drawn out war on their own terms, we need to seize the initiative and fight them on our terms with our strengths. They want a long drawn out conflict, so it is in our interest to make the rules.

The followers of these sociopathic criminals have been sold a lie and if the bombs start falling on mass scale is it worth it. As the followers of these sociopathic criminals have been brainwashed they cannot see the reality and futility of the objective, their sociopathic criminal leaders such Hassan have chosen for them.

He considers the non-combatants as collateral damage, tools for his failed objectives. Technically Hassan already considers the non-combatants as military tools to be used in his doomed insurgency, thus Hassan has made the civilians who support his criminal organisation to be combatants.

If bombs fall from the sky is this not Gods will or the will of the sociopathic criminal Hassan who has decide that hundreds of thousands must die, because this is what Hassan has chosen for his followers. There many cases of criminally sick individuals who have killed their followers with no basis of true religion only the control and design of a madman such as in events like Jonestown and David Koresh and perhaps possibly in the future Hassan.

As with the President using the term Islamic Fascists, my post will also be considered perhaps inflammatory in value, it is only an analysis on how one may perceive the doctrine being used in the name of Islam by sociopathic criminals such as Hassan.

If anybody wishes to evaluate large scale bombing or ‘shock and awe’ they should speak to war criminal Bin Laden, that’s if they can catch him in anything but a rerun?:sleepy3ope:

 

[Red aRRow]

Equating Hezbollah with the likes of Al Qaida just on the fact that both happen to be muslims reveals personal biases if anything else.

Hezbollah has no dreams of world domination like the likes of AQ or the 'coalition of the willing'. They are fighting in defence of their country which has been repeatedly attacked and occupied by Israel since decades.
And they are doing a pretty good job of it. The breakdown of the casualties clearly shows who is targeting civiliand deliberately. Trying to justify it by saying it is because of more firepower (as one member said) is illogical. Furthermore Israel has actively bombed aid convoys coming into Lebanon.

Most in the western world seem to be brainwashed by the likes of Fox News and identify more closely with Israeli Jews. It's quite evident from some people's posts that they value one life over the other based on their internal hatred and bias which is actually reflected in their electing war criminals as their national leaders.

I hope the sooner people wisen up and stop supporting right wing nutcases, be they idiots from AQ or the so called free countries, the better.

 

[radiosilence]

Now from an ethical perspective one has to establish what and who is classified as a non-combatant. Now as radical ‘criminals’ breed their children for martyrdom, are juveniles classified as non-combatants are their parents who indoctrinate this criminal sociopathic doctrine. :

Any factual evidence to back this claim up?

 

[Grand Danois]

The breakdown of the casualties clearly shows who is targeting civiliand deliberately. Trying to justify it by saying it is because of more firepower (as one member said) is illogical. Furthermore Israel has actively bombed aid convoys coming into Lebanon.

Each and every rocket fired towards Israel by Hezbollah is with the intent of killing civilians. The majority doesn't hit anything so casualties are low, despite being targeted deliberately at civilians.

If each and bomb or missile dropped by Israel was deliberately targeted at civilians, just like Hezbollah does it, casualties would go through the roof. Logic!

Hezbollah is waging unrestrained warfare on Israel with these rockets as they are not accountable to any treaties, diplomatic rules and international institutions. Hezbollah is only accountable to self, Iran and Syria.

These are btw, the same reasons as to why Hezbollah cannot legitimately defend Lebanon. This can only be done legitimately by the legitimate government of Lebanon and not a non-state actor like Hezbollah.

Wether you think it or not, Israel is subject to pressure from the outside. When Lebanese civilians get killed it is a huge PR disaster for the Israelis and it eats up the political capital and goodwill.

So they have every reason not to deliberately target civilians.

Whatever you think of who is right or wrong in this war, one thing is for sure in all wars: The moral high grounds are not automatically handed to the side with the most casualties. Casualty figures does not reflect intent, but ability to kill. It may not appeal to any sense of justice, but that is how reality is.

 

[Red aRRow]

Well bombing aid convoys is a pretty deliberate move and clearly shows the intent of the party which indulges in such an act.
If indeed Hezbollah was waging 'unrestricted warfare' on Israel, as you claim, then we would have already had rockets landing on Tel Aviv as they do have the capability. On the other hand Israeli forces have bombed places as far away as Tripoli just in order to harass Lebanon into somehow (magically perhaps) to withdraw Hezbollah from South Lebanon when it well knows that the Lebanese government has no capacity of doing so. This constitutes as intentional terroristic tactics employed at the state level.
Bombing power stations supplying electricity to civilian areas are not going to have any effect on Hezbollah so what is the legitimacy of such tactics, for example?

Also what do you think is when 'casualties start going through the roof'?? What is it for you.....100,000, million perhaps when you somehow consider that to be through your preconceived idea of a 'roof' on casualties?

 

[Stryker001]

To indoctrinate your own children that their purpose in this world is to die for a failed and false cause is not rational behaviour in my opinion. Even when applying the sociological imagination to examine other cultures in this case the culture of martyrdom to brainwash young children is not rational behaviour. I would classify such anti-social behaviour as being criminally sociopathic in nature. I don’t think anybody in the modern world would argue that Hitler was criminally sick, a sociopath.

Terrorism is criminal behaviour, people who commit terrorism on innocent civilians are either criminally sick/sociopaths or brainwashed. Of course all Americans civilians and their allies or the Israeli are considered to be combatants by the terrorists which is why they target us via suicide methodology and other attacks.

As such a conflict like the war on fundamental Islamic criminals will not end until the breeding grounds for such extremist values such as the cult of the suicide bomber and martyrdom are countered.

Hey that’s just my view, perhaps people think is perfectly normal to brainwash your children with failed teachings such as the Syrian edition of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion which is authorised by the Syrian Ministry of Information and is distributed across the Middle Eastern region.

This non-factual propaganda is used in teaching children a form of Islamic Fascism, as long as children are indoctrinated in such Anti-Semitism there will never be a larger peace in the Middle East and Lebanon will be the victim of destabilisation by foreign nations and terrorist organisation. Syria and Iran and the Hizbollah will continue to use the geographic location of Lebanon as a proxy to conduct operations on Israel.

So in this war there are no non-combatants the rules of engagement as established by our enemies, Islamic rules a head for an eye?

While we worry about world opinion, PR the UN, whilst trying to combat a cunning and brutal enemy whose PR is the propagation of death.

Sure we must give peace a chance; however this must be closely monitored as once Iran has non-conventional weaponry the game plan changes, Hizbollah would not have agreed to any ceasefire without the greenlight from Tehran. So it must be a tactical advantage for Syria and Iran and Hizbollah for the current arrangement to be accepted.

If Israel was destroyed then the Arab Royal families would be next in the establishment of a Pan-Islamic state across the whole Arab world.

The world should not forget that it was thought that Hitler could be negotiated with for peace and also what happens when a race or religion is under the spell of a doctrine intent on evil.

And make no mistakes about it, the IDF will do what they feel is the right response to protect Israel, in fact this ceasefire will work in the IDF favour as if the UN fail and they cannot resolve the issue, they should stay out of Middle Eastern affairs.

Anyway that all I have to say, let the ceasefire and UN stabilisation force try to solve the problem, yet it is history that will be the judge, it's all hypothetical on a forum out there in the real world there is no margin for error.

 

[Grand Danois]

Well bombing aid convoys is a pretty deliberate move and clearly shows the intent of the party which indulges in such an act.

What I said was:

Each and every rocket fired towards Israel by Hezbollah is with the intent of killing civilians. The majority doesn't hit anything so casualties are low, despite being targeted deliberately at civilians.

If each and bomb or missile dropped by Israel was deliberately targeted at civilians, just like Hezbollah does it, casualties would go through the roof. Logic!

I don't know the particular event you're talking of, but war is horrible and people die. That is how war is. War is also faulty intelligence, malfunctioning technology, ROE's that doesn't match every situation, human errors and prejudices.

I do think the Israeli campaign against the Lebanese infrastructure is excessive, but there is quite a leap from the systematic, deliberate targeting of civilians Hezbollah does, to unique events on behalf of the Israelis. That is why I began the sentences with "Each and every..."

If indeed Hezbollah was waging 'unrestricted warfare' on Israel, as you claim, then we would have already had rockets landing on Tel Aviv as they do have the capability. On the other hand Israeli forces have bombed places as far away as Tripoli just in order to harass Lebanon into somehow (magically perhaps) to withdraw Hezbollah from South Lebanon when it well knows that the Lebanese government has no capacity of doing so. This constitutes as intentional terroristic tactics employed at the state level.

I said "unrestrained warfare." But you do have a point wrt the long range rockets. Why haven't they been used? Does the Hezbollah have moral scruples using them, or are they waiting for the time of their optimal use?

As I said, the air campaign would have benefitted with being more limited in scale, for reasons that relates to the political arena, rather than the operational.

IDF is restrained in their ROE, ie their targeting procedures. That was what I was addressing. As to the scope, it itself does not facilitate the label "intentional terroristic," because war is war is war. It doesn't get any different.

Bombing power stations supplying electricity to civilian areas are not going to have any effect on Hezbollah so what is the legitimacy of such tactics, for example?

Goes to above. If Israel deems it is necessary in order to set conditions, deny services to Hezbollah, establish a crisis in the international community etc., it becomes a tool of politics and war. And war is war is war. Lebanon left the choice of scope to Israel, as Lebanon didn't deal with the non-state actor Hezbollah. That is how legitimacy works. It is not fair, it is not just, but it is reality and legitimate.

Hezbollah get its moral legitimacy from "defending Lebanon from Israel" and they would lose that legitimacy if they didn't keep the border with Israel stirred. So the raison d'etre for the militia component of Hezbollah is to actively fight an enemy. They need an enemy. The need for legitimacy drives their fight, so it also works that way.

Also what do you think is when 'casualties start going through the roof'?? What is it for you.....100,000, million perhaps when you somehow consider that to be through your preconceived idea of a 'roof' on casualties?

FYI, the sentence "casualties would go through the roof" is equivalent to "casualties would soar." So it is a concept and not an numerical absolute. This also does not imply any preconceived ideas on roofs.

I still contend that you cannot read who has the moral high ground from casualty figures.

 

[merocaine]

Goes to above. If Israel deems it is necessary in order to set conditions, deny services to Hezbollah, establish a crisis in the international community etc., it becomes a tool of politics and war. And war is war is war. Lebanon left the choice of scope to Israel, as Lebanon didn't deal with the non-state actor Hezbollah. That is how legitimacy works. It is not fair, it is not just, but it is reality and legitimate.

Thats called collective punish, and is considered a war crime under international law. Israel has consistenty hit civilian targets during there operations in the Lebanon. Just because they say there selective doesent mean there telling the truth.

I said "unrestrained warfare." But you do have a point wrt the long range rockets. Why haven't they been used? Does the Hezbollah have moral scruples using them, or are they waiting for the time of their optimal use?

As I said, the air campaign would have benefitted with being more limited in scale, for reasons that relates to the political arena, rather than the operational.

Hezzbullah stared rocket attacks on Israeli citys and villages, after Israel started a bombing campain in the Leb. They havent hit Tel Aviv because Israel havent hit the Center of Beruit. Hezzbullahs responces have been measured, wheater you chose to belive it or not(despite being illegal, though when your enemy acts in an illegal fashion its easier to claim the right to hit back)

I don't know the particular event you're talking of, but war is horrible and people die. That is how war is. War is also faulty intelligence, malfunctioning technology, ROE's that doesn't match every situation, human errors and prejudices.

Thats called a 'cop out' in Ireland, I've seen red cross amulances with direct hits right through the cross on the roof that is someone in Israel making a concious decision to hit the Red Cross. There are other targeting errors, baby food factory, Fruit wholesale supplier(30 dead workers) roads, bridges,
Power stations??? how is this going to effect a gurrilla organisation???
I dont know how you define terrorist, maybe it a them thing, but for me its a deliberate attack on civilian targets. You can't blame everything on faulty intel. You should check out some Israeli right wing blogs, those guys are in the army too, and some of their "solutions" are quite terrifying.

I still contend that you cannot read who has the moral high ground from casualty figures.

There is no moral high ground in this war, though the facts on the ground show the Israelies killing civilians at a rate of 30 to 1.

 

[Stryker001]

Enough!