PRC Peoples Liberation Army Navy

[Ananda]

Even putting the propaganda component aside it was still quite interesting.

Yeah when I open this video and they talk on importance of Jiangnan toward PLAN, I wish they shown production stages on their Type 03 carrier. Well can't hope much CCTV will open that.

Interesting that labour efficiency was often mentioned.
Surely not a problem for the largest nation in the world, yet It appears they are truly striving to build a world

Seems they're striving on efficiency. They have to face the highly efficient ROK, Japanese even Taiwan yards. When I talk with some of our shipping customers, they talk on Chinese yards already cutting the Korean and Japanese yards on 30,000-60,000 dwt bulk freight and tankers class. They need to cut the market on larger freighter and tanker class from their East Asia competitors. That's where some more to date automation coming handy.

 

[John Fedup]

Some new imagery on China’s Type 003 carrier. Appears to be close to Ford’s size, thus it may likely be nuclear powered.

China's Massive New Aircraft Carrier Is As Big As It Can Be - Naval News

Aircraft carriers are at the vanguard of China's incredible naval expansion A new, larger super-carrier is being built near Shanghai. Analysis of radar satellite imagery shows that it is as large as China's new bases allow.

www.navalnews.com

 

[ragingsheep]

Appears to be close to Ford’s size, thus it may likely be nuclear powered.

China's Massive New Aircraft Carrier Is As Big As It Can Be - Naval News

Aircraft carriers are at the vanguard of China's incredible naval expansion A new, larger super-carrier is being built near Shanghai. Analysis of radar satellite imagery shows that it is as large as China's new bases allow.

www.navalnews.com

It is 100% going to be conventionally powered.

 

[ngatimozart]

It is 100% going to be conventionally powered.

And how do you know that?

You have only made five posts on here and are still a newbie, so one line posts are not acceptable. Secondly, provide a link to support your claims. Both of these are a requirement of the rules.

 

[ragingsheep]

And how do you know that?

There are pictures of the installed island which clearly show where the exhausts from the engines are. The islands would otherwise be unnecessarily large if they didn't need somewhere to put the pipes.



Also the technological roadmap for the PLAN carrier developement program has been more or less public for years now and the PLA is generally fairly risk adverse in the adoption of new technologies preferring an iterative process:
1. Kuznetsov class STOBAR carrier (Type 001 and 002)
2. Develop a CATOBAR carrier using conventional power (Type 003 and potentially 004)
3. Develop a CATOBAR carrier using nuclear power (speculation for now; possibly Type 005+)

There haven't been any credible reports of the Type 003 carrier being powered using nuclear power at all and I'm not sure the Chinese even have a naval reactor large enough unless they're looking to replicate what the USN did with USS Enterprise and use a number of smaller reactors (like from their nuclear subs).

 

[Redlands18]

There are pictures of the installed island which clearly show where the exhausts from the engines are. The islands would otherwise be unnecessarily large if they didn't need somewhere to put the pipes.

View attachment 48615 View attachment 48616

Also the technological roadmap for the PLAN carrier developement program has been more or less public for years now and the PLA is generally fairly risk adverse in the adoption of new technologies preferring an iterative process:
1. Kuznetsov class STOBAR carrier (Type 001 and 002)
2. Develop a CATOBAR carrier using conventional power (Type 003 and potentially 004)
3. Develop a CATOBAR carrier using nuclear power (speculation for now; possibly Type 005+)

There haven't been any credible reports of the Type 003 carrier being powered using nuclear power at all and I'm not sure the Chinese even have a naval reactor large enough unless they're looking to replicate what the USN did with USS Enterprise and use a number of smaller reactors (like from their nuclear subs).

Nimitz Class Aircraft Carrier

The Nimitz-class aircraft carriers were the largest warships ever built until the commissioning of USS Gerald R Ford in 2017.

www.naval-technology.com

Both the Nimitz and Ford class have 2 Reactors, so any Chinese Carriers would probably need multiple Reactors. China doesn't appear to be pumping out Nuclear powered Submarines at any great rate, certainly not compared to their Surface fleet at present anyway.

 

[ngatimozart]

There are pictures of the installed island which clearly show where the exhausts from the engines are. The islands would otherwise be unnecessarily large if they didn't need somewhere to put the pipes.

View attachment 48615 View attachment 48616

Also the technological roadmap for the PLAN carrier developement program has been more or less public for years now and the PLA is generally fairly risk adverse in the adoption of new technologies preferring an iterative process:
1. Kuznetsov class STOBAR carrier (Type 001 and 002)
2. Develop a CATOBAR carrier using conventional power (Type 003 and potentially 004)
3. Develop a CATOBAR carrier using nuclear power (speculation for now; possibly Type 005+)

There haven't been any credible reports of the Type 003 carrier being powered using nuclear power at all and I'm not sure the Chinese even have a naval reactor large enough unless they're looking to replicate what the USN did with USS Enterprise and use a number of smaller reactors (like from their nuclear subs).

OK good piece of analysis and I happen to agree that CV003 will most likely be conventionally powered. Various different sources that I have read over time state that the PLAN most likely don't yet have reactors large enough to power such a large CV. It is believed that CV004 will be the nuclear powered one.

However the CCP and PLA manage to keep pretty tight security on their development programmes and for all we know they may already have a viable series of reactors capable of powering a CVN. If that is indeed the case then the features that we do see could be fake. We cannot tell that from the photos.

Speaking of photos. You are required to post links to the sources for the photos and any other material, quotes, or claims that you post.

 

[John Fedup]

Some new photos of the naval version of the FC-31. This comes only days after J-20B photos. It will be interesting to see how quickly FC-31 jets will be available to the new Type 003 carrier. Unfortunately sooner rather than later would be my guess based on China's rapid development of new military assets during the last 10 years.

China’s Carrier-Capable Naval Stealth Fighter Has Flown | The Drive

 

[spoz]

Hm, the undercarriage looks a bit lighter than I would expect for a carrier aircraft, particularly one that would use a ski jump for take off. Designed for a cat, the, presumably.

 

[John Fedup]

Hm, the undercarriage looks a bit lighter than I would expect for a carrier aircraft, particularly one that would use a ski jump for take off. Designed for a cat, the, presumably.

Based on the limited info so far, the FC-31 will likely be a CATOBAR jet. The Type 003 carrier is rumoured to have EMALS. Clearly the PLAN and their aviators will have lots of work to do developing CATOBAR capability and the design people behind the jet will be doing some tweaking no doubt. However, given the financial resources China has, this will capability will get done.

 

[Ananda]

China's Future Carrier Airwing: New Stealth Fighter and AWACS Spotted in Flight - Naval News

Several pictures by local plane spotters surfaced today showing two key aircraft of the future Chinese aircraft carrier airwing in flight: The new People's Liberation Army Navy Air Force (PLANAF) twin engine stealth fighter (sometimes referred to as as J-35) and the KJ-600 airborne early warning...

www.navalnews.com

With this kind of Air Wing, CATOBAR operation is the kind of carriers for next gen PLAN operations. So seems no turning back from CATOBAR to previous STOBAR in the first two.

This means different set of Airwings for each type of carriers. Which seems confirm some analysts that speculate both Stobar will not be maintain more then end of next decade, if their Catobar prove to be succesful.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Its official now:
The PLAN is the largest navy in the world with a battle force of approximately 355 platforms. This figure this figure includes most surface ships and submarines, but it does not include 85 smaller patrol combatants and craft that carry anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs).

The PLAN’s overall battle force is expected to grow to 420 ships by 2025 and 460 ships by 2030.

US DoD's 2021 China Military Power Report: PLAN is the Largest Navy in the World - Naval News

The United States Department of Defense (DoD) released its annual report on military and security developments involving China, commonly referred to as the China Military Power Report. The report says the Chinese Navy is now the largest in the world with 355 ships.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

France and Germany provided many propulsion systems for the chinese navy, MTU engines for example, are used for the Type 052D destroyers and Type 039 submarines.

SEMT - Pielstick (part of MAN) exported PA6 dieselgenerators for chinese frigates, and now Shaanxi Diesel Engine Works even build these things in licence for the Type 054-fregatten. Its just a matter of time that they will totally copy everything and mass produce engines which are 'inspired by German and France technology'. Thats why the chinese armed forces and defence industry can develop so fast.

Duitse en Franse motoren in Chinese marineschepen

Handelsembargo of niet.

marineschepen.nl

 

[John Fedup]

France and Germany provided many propulsion systems for the chinese navy, MTU engines for example, are used for the Type 052D destroyers and Type 039 submarines.

SEMT - Pielstick (part of MAN) exported PA6 dieselgenerators for chinese frigates, and now Shaanxi Diesel Engine Works even build these things in licence for the Type 054-fregatten. Its just a matter of time that they will totally copy everything and mass produce engines which are 'inspired by German and France technology'. Thats why the chinese armed forces and defence industry can develop so fast.

Duitse en Franse motoren in Chinese marineschepen

Handelsembargo of niet.

marineschepen.nl

Yes, these fools are following the path of the aviation industry, gaining market access in return for licensing IP and setting up plants in China….short term gain but eventually creating competitors that will eat their lunch on cost. Fortunately the turbine manufacturers have been prevented from doing something similar which explains China’s slow progress on jet engines.

 

[Ananda]

these fools are following the path of the aviation industry, gaining market access in return for licensing IP and setting up plants in China…

I think not until a decade ago, everyone underestimate with how fast the Chinese Industry speed on copying and upgrading their tech base from that.

Talking to a Japanese exec from an electronics industry sometimes ago. Seems many of Foreign players that build Industry in China, think it will take at least two decades for most of their Chinese partner to catch up. Turn out only slightly more then a decade for most of them to catching up with their Foreign partner tech.

 

[John Fedup]

I think not until a decade ago, everyone underestimate with how fast the Chinese Industry speed on copying and upgrading their tech base from that.

Talking to a Japanese exec from an electronics industry sometimes ago. Seems many of Foreign players that build Industry in China, think it will take at least two decades for most of their Chinese partner to catch up. Turn out only slightly more then a decade for most of them to catching up with their Foreign partner tech.

Yep, modern IT tools likely helped with the faster development cycle. Had a engineering friend who commented years ago when the USA was concerned about how Japan was threatening their industrial leadership. His point was Japan was first jump into China and that was a significant contribution to Japan’s economy in the 1970-80s. Perhaps Japan’s slowdown in the late 1990s early 2000s was partly due to all the other Western economies jumping in with even dumber “IP give-ways”

 

[swerve]

I think not until a decade ago, everyone underestimate with how fast the Chinese Industry speed on copying and upgrading their tech base from that.

Talking to a Japanese exec from an electronics industry sometimes ago. Seems many of Foreign players that build Industry in China, think it will take at least two decades for most of their Chinese partner to catch up. Turn out only slightly more then a decade for most of them to catching up with their Foreign partner tech.

Not long ago I was checking the English of some translations for a Japanese manufacturer of (among other things) machines for automated testing of blood samples. One of them was about their Chinese subsidiary. It started out as an assembly plant. The document I checked was about a new product developed by that subsidiary. It had pictures of smiling geeky people in a gleaming lab, surrounding their new machine.

It was a new member of a family of machines, but still . . .

 

[Ananda]

Perhaps Japan’s slowdown in the late 1990s early 2000s was partly due to all the other Western economies jumping in with even dumber “IP give-ways”

The document I checked was about a new product developed by that subsidiary. It had pictures of smiling geeky peopl

That's what make China can catching up fast. The subsidiaries with local partners model is being done by Foreign Investors in many countries for some time. However in China it's also followed by end to end ecosystem support.

Means the wholle the origination supply system also doing subsidiaries and local partners model in China. This means the supply support systems also being build in China, not just the main assets.

I'm going take an example with South East Asia. The Japanese and Koreans manufactures also have factories and subsidiaries with local partners there. However the supply systems scattered on several countries including the originals, China, and other SEA nations. Thus no singgle partner having the complete tech.

The models also in theory done in China. Where all the tech in main products and supporting systems scattered with many partners. Thus in theory no singgle partner can have the wholle tech. However all of them are mostly Chinese partners. This is what CCP design with in my opinion. They attract foreign investors on the wholle supply systems investment. This then create capabilities on China to provide efficient manufacturing environment with local know how.

Back to SEA, two biggest automative manufacturers are Thailand and Indonesia. Can Thai's and Indo automative partners build their own car ? Talking to some if their executives, they say yes definitely they can. However since the supply systems control by the original vendors chain, they have to build or sources some of it outside Thai and Indonesia. This make their own products more costly then building it as partners of the Original Manufacturers. That kind of thing that CCP make sure Chinese manufacturers have that kind efficient enviroment to begin with. This including supportive fiscal and investment policies to begin with.

So it's not just due they give 'IP' to begin with. I don't think they (the original manufacturers) are not realises the risk on that. However since China can attract complete supply chains Investment, thus they (Chinese manufacturers) can practically gain know how on the complete tech. This's what CCP supporting off from begining.

 

[John Fedup]

WRT to a lot of initial Western investments in China, the potential for quick profits blinded many to any realizations of long term consequences for their future economic health due to aggressive new state backed competitors. This especially applies to industries with dual use capability now (civilian/military). One standout example is ship building. All those container ships and tankers provided the revenues for the PLAN along with the infrastructure and skilled labour for building naval ships. If the Chinese aviation industry can take on the duopoly then this will benefit the PLAAF in a similar manner. Fortunately for the West, this may be a much tougher goal.

 

[Paull Fuzzball]

Seems nearly 90 J-15 are already operational going by serial number. Should be more than enough for 3 carriers by the mid 2020.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466733738163908615