Portugal buys leopard MBT from netherlands

[contedicavour]

1/3 is not that much. There is no red army trying to push right to the channel. The target is to be able to do oversea missions together with allies and to conserve the armored warfare knowledge and capabilities.
For example during cold war we had thousands of tanks in Germany. Next year there will be round about 350 remaining MBTs.

Only 350 ? Where will the other 2000 Leo 2 end up then ? I know of a few second-hand for Spain, Poland (180) Greece (180) and Turkey (300), but there are so many others that would not be used !

 

[Grand Danois]

Only 350 ? Where will the other 2000 Leo 2 end up then ? I know of a few second-hand for Spain, Greece and Turkey, but there are so many others that would not be used !

57 German Leo 2A5's ended up in Denmark replacing 230 Leo 1A5's. It seems to be the same picture across Europe.

 

[contedicavour]

A tracked vehicle is definitely more manueverable than a wheeled one in every harder terrain. For example the Leopard II is able to climb a 60% grade.

Only size could become a problem in mountaineous areas but for real mountain troops there are other vehicles like BV-290, Wiesel, Mules.

I just checked on http://www.army-technology.com/projects/centauro/
and it says :

The Centauro armoured fighting vehicles can negotiate gradients up to 60%, fording depth of 1.5m without preparation, and have a turning radius of 9m.

I checked in the same site for the same data on the Leo 2 but didn't find any. So I checked on our Ariete MBT and it says it can negotiate gradients of up to 60°, so same as the Centauro.

A comparison in speeds gives 100+ km/h for the Centauro and 65 km/h for the Ariete.

All of this to explain why I feel that the Centauro (and similar vehicles such as AMX10) are well suited to most missions usually assigned to MBTs, except facing other MBTs in a traditional tank battle.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Just believe me. I trained together with wheeled vehicles of many kinds and none of them were able to go along with my Leopard if there is something other than street or flat, dry terrain.
Tracked vehicles are also better suited against enemy fire directed against them with smaller calibres (20mm, etc.)

Our Leopards went also to Poland, Finland and Chile.
350 is the active number. Some hundred are going into the depot.

 

[swerve]

Only 350 ? Where will the other 2000 Leo 2 end up then ? I know of a few second-hand for Spain, Poland (180) Greece (180) and Turkey (300), but there are so many others that would not be used !

Sales of 2nd hand Leopard 2
Buyer - Number - Seller
Sweden 160 (Germany)
Austria 115 (Netherlands)
Denmark 52 (Germany)
Norway 52 (Netherlands)
Finland 124 (Germany)
Poland 128 (Germany)
Greece 183 (Germany)
Turkey 298 (Germany)
Chile 100 (Germany)
Spain 108 (Germany)
Portugal 36 (Netherlands)

New sales -
Bundeswehr 2125 (972 remaining)
Netherlands 445 (242 remaining)
Switzerland 370
Sweden 120
Spain 219
Greece 170

Switzerland is offering about 100 for sale. Sweden may sell the 160 secondhand Leo 2A4. Netherlands & Germany still have some for sale.

 

[.pt]

tank sales

Well someone here said something about the small number the Portuguese Army is buying of Leopard A26 MBT, after seeing the last post, i´d say we are just wayting for the Dutch/german MBT sales season to open, so we can purchase some more at rock bottom prices
Nevertheless 350 operational MBt for a country like Germany just seems way too small a number for me, specially after we just lost the 3rd place in the World cup to them:wah

 

[Waylander]

Wooooohaaaaaa, Paaaaarty. Winner!!!!!! :rolling

Back to topic

All german tanks which could be bought are not Leopard 2A5/A6 but A4. This is not a bad tank and would go against T-72s and older T-80 with it every day but it is getting old by now.

Our 350 tanks are operating in 6 btls. I also think that this is the absolut minimum but you know the budget problems of every european country.

 

[Soner1980]

But selling tanks is not so much money for the German mega economy....

Btw Polish army has seen that the A4's are also obsolete, but for Turkey it is the damn most modern tank in inventory. I saw on TV that a Turkish general said that the M48 was a good tank but the M60 is better. No way. The T1 is only accurate in firing and economic fuel usage. And weak armor makes it cath fire too fast. Also reliable but this tank has to phased out 15 years earlier in Turkish service. Some of them are also used in the Cyprus war, so old...

Leo-2A4 should be upgraded with some extra frontal armor and a longer barrel to come close to the A6.

 

[Waylander]

Every cent is necessary for us!

And don't talk bad about my former baby. :

 

[contedicavour]

Every cent is necessary for us!

And don't talk bad about my former baby. :

The L2A4 is still a formidable asset against armies equipped with T-72s.
I just wish the Italian Army replaced the remaining Leo1s with German second hand L2A4.
Unfortunately no more Arietes will be built, and the remaining Leo1s are likely to be replaced by Centauros (8x8 wheeled armored vehicle) with a 120mm turret.

cheers

 

[.pt]

leo

Contedicavour,

You mean Italy is giving up all of its Leopard 1?What type and strength of MBT will you retain?

 

[swerve]

Contedicavour,

You mean Italy is giving up all of its Leopard 1?What type and strength of MBT will you retain?

Italy has ca 200 Ariete. 120mm smoothbore gun, 50+ tons - usual sort of thing.

 

[contedicavour]

Contedicavour,

You mean Italy is giving up all of its Leopard 1?What type and strength of MBT will you retain?

We're planning on replacing the last 120 Leo1-A5 with Centauro with 120mm turret. Personally I would prefer 120 Leo2-A4.
We have 5 tank regiments (belonging to the armored cavalry as the 9 regiments with Centauro), 3 in the elite Ariete armored brigade (all with Ariete MBT), 1 in the Garibaldi mech brigade and 1 in the Pinerolo armored brigade. All are ready and tested in Iraq.

cheers

 

[oskarm]

Do you have more specific information about TO&Es of Italian army? Some time ago I have found that armored Brigade composed of 3 armored battalions and 2 mech. and mech. brigade 3 mech. and 2 armored. How the battalions, coys., platoons are organized?

 

[contedicavour]

Do you have more specific information about TO&Es of Italian army? Some time ago I have found that armored Brigade composed of 3 armored battalions and 2 mech. and mech. brigade 3 mech. and 2 armored. How the battalions, coys., platoons are organized?

We've got no more battallions, only regiments.
Each regiment is approx 1,200 strong and, for the cavalry/armored regiments, has 54 MBTs or Centauros. This is enough for 4 companies of 12+1 (company commander's), and the 53rd and 54th which are regiment commander's and vice-commander's tanks.
This explains why we have 3 regiments with the Ariete MBT (the remaining 38 are at the cavalry school in Lecce or in reserve), 2 with Leo1-A5 (total 120), and 9 with Centauro (here it's a bit more complicated, 3 companies use Centauro and the 4th has Puma 6x6 or 4x4, waiting for Centauro VBC 8x8, so a total of 9x41=369 Centauros and 9x13=117 Pumas).
Brigade wise, we have 2 armored/tank, the Ariete and the Pinerolo, and 4 mechanized (Garibaldi, Granatieri, Sassari, Aosta ), then 2 Alpine (Taurinense, Julia), 1 paratroopers (Folgore), 1 helo/FRC (Friuli), 1 Marines (San Marco, joint with Navy), 2 artillery (1 with SAMs), and 1 cavalry (Pozzuolo del Friuli). Each brigade has 5-6 regiments, incl artillery and logistics.

cheers

 

[marcvs75]

In the new defence plans of the Dutch landforces only two mechanised brigades will remain. Both contains one tankbatallion and two mechanised infantry batallions en some supporting units (recon). This means that the Dutch landforces will have 84 leopard 2A6 in active duty (of a total of 110)

The infantry en recon units will receive the CV9035 (184 total) en Fennek (410 total)

 

[Waylander]

410 Fenneks is a big purchase if you look at the rest of your mechanized forces. Especially because Fennek is only usefull as a reconnassaince vehicle with no counter reconnassaince capabilities.

 

[KWSN-Men]

Only 350 ? Where will the other 2000 Leo 2 end up then ? I know of a few second-hand for Spain, Poland (180) Greece (180) and Turkey (300), but there are so many others that would not be used !

I am sure the Greek Army is very interested in some of them.

Plans are eventually having more than 600 Leo 2's, with the used A4's being gradually upgraded to A6 level over the years.

Also the plans are to lower the number of MBT's to about 1100.

 

[marcvs75]

It is indeed an big number. But more types will be in service: a recon, a forward artillery controller and a medium range anti-tank variant

 

[Waylander]

We also use them as FAC but not as tank hunter. With which weapon are they gonna have?

To go back to topic.
Are there tank hunter units in the army of Portugal to support the infantry against armored threats?