PLAAF v. IAF

zoolander

New Member
There been heated debates on which one is better. Lets assume that logistics doesn't apply(location of air bases) which nation would win in a air war. Only include weapons that will be fielded within a couple of months or in operational status. that means no j-xx, j-11a, j-10a, or lcas because none of them will be fielded within one year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

zoolander

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
to get started compare aircraft technology, the number of aircrafts, missiles, air to ground capabilitys, stratigic bombing ability, SAMs, training, and anti-ship abilitys
 

zoolander

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
PLAAF

The PLAAF is composed of 330,000 personnel. The PLAAF is in control of all airborne assets and Anti aircraft systems. The PLAAF currently operates 3,500aircraft and over 1000 SAM systems. It is going to be slimmed down soon and will have a lower pilot to aircraft ratio increasing the standard of training

J-10 - From engine purchases, we know that there are more than 40 J-10 in production or produced.

J-11- China has a confired figure of 90-100J-11s already produced with a possible 100 more depending if the contract is still valid. i roughly say that 70% will be upgraded to the J-11B standard

Su-27SK. A total of 76 aircraft has been confirmed. This is also a what if considering how well J-11B upgrades go. but i say about 70% of these will be upgraded

Su-30MKK - 76 of these multi-role aircraft have been confirmed and wouldn't recieve upgrades now or near future

Su-30MKK2 - 24 examples have been delievered

J-7 - China has 500 of these planes which are upgraded and now able to fire AAM and do a little bombing. But it has very short legs

J-8II - 240 have already been built ranging from a primitive plane to the J-8H which fires BVR missiles.

Q-5- over 1000 examples of this has been built. This derative of the mig-19 has a very limited ground attack ability. Upgraded ones are now able to use lasar guided bombs.

JH-7- about 50 have been built and delievered. the future is in question with its limited amounts of sutable engines.

H-6- many examples of this has been built. The more modern ones can lauch air lauched cruise missiles .
 

zoolander

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
could someone please provide a list of IAF planes. Include only fighters, bombers , and multirole planes. Please do not include transport, EW planes and such for they will be compared seperatelly later.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Scorpius said:
I am sorry I am a bit confused.IAF= Israeli air force or the Indian air force?
IAF = Indian AirForce

Israeli Airforce is called IDAF or some thing, besides there is no point in putting PLAAF against IDAF. They r kinda friendly while Chinese & Indians have conflicts over various issues.
 

chinawhite

New Member
Zoolander......Give credit to the person you copied off. :duel

That came with a indian section to. I think it was for a timescale of 2010??

Indian side

Su-30MKI- India already has 30-40MKIs now and maybe a possible 90-100 ready by 2010. Well it was rumoured/confirmed that india would have 190 MKIs this has been put down since india had just signed a contract to sell off 18 Su-30Ks but still has the license to produce 140 by HAL and the possibility to upgrade her existing Su-30MK aircraft though this has not been confirmed. Its large and has a heavy payload with the massive PESA BARS radar which offers very long detection range. Which in 2010 will be fitted with the AESA irbis if it has finished development. But bottom line is it is very large and holds a lot of missiles bombs etc. long range air superioty aircraft

Mirage 2000- 53 are in indian service with a poissble contract of 126 new mirages 2000 that can be signed. While this is the Mirage 2000. Long service history and played its part in '99. Airfoces choice for the MRCA and is quite a airplane with excellent multi-role capabbilities.

Mig-27- 130 of these fighters which have been upgraded. While its a 3.5 generation aircraft with upgrades for strike roles which it mainly is used for. Has all the latest gear and forms one of the componets in indias strike role.

Mig-21 bison aka Mig-21-93- about 125aircraft will be upgraded to this standard wth a option of 50 more. While this is the little Mig-21 being upgraded to fire R-77s with the russian Kopyo which has standard detection range. Has RAM paint and a new engine and one MFD included. Addin improved capabilites to a old aircraft might sound good as a stop gap but i dont think these planes have a lot of remaining flying time in them

The LCA and MRCA are big what ifs. The track record of the LCA should be well known and its a big what if so i will put it at 30-40 aircraft. While the LCAs track record is not impressive. I would not like to comment on it

Mig-29. 60 plus of these fighters which in their prime would have been a hard challenge but they are mostly older types which have older technology and most likey be upgraded with better radar and avonics

MRCA- This all depends on the date signed and what aircraft. This is all a big if.

OK so the main aircraft in this are the F-16, Superbug, Mig-29M2, And the new comers the EF and rafale. With any of these planes included it will be a great problem because all of these quoted capabbilities are extremely impressive. But the down side is they do not exisit yet and are not fielded into the indian airforce and will be looking at a later senario for these planes to be included. 126 to the now 200 order this will be a very big jump in capabilities considering they are replacing the Mig-21s which aren't being upgraded.

You probaly know the reputation of these fighters already from numerous forums(thats if you go around) and they are all high quailty fighters.


While basically a quailty airforce will smaller numbers
 
Last edited:

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
You forgot the IAF 'Jaguars' China white. Dont know how many Jaguars are in IAF service.

Besides the Indian Airforce, the Indian Navy also has 'Harriers.'

MRCA- This all depends on the date signed and what aircraft. This is all a big if.

OK so the main aircraft in this are the F-16, Superbug, Mig-29M2, And the new comers the EF and rafale. With any of these planes included it will be a great problem because all of these quoted capabbilities are extremely impressive. But the down side is they do not exisit yet and are not fielded into the indian airforce and will be looking at a later senario for these planes to be included. 126 to the now 200 order this will be a very big jump in capabilities considering they are replacing the Mig-21s which aren't being upgraded.
F-16 = The Indians dont seem to be into F-16s. It is the F-18 that is on top of the table.

Rafale
= Rejected by the IAF

EF-2000 = No official word on it, just kids talking abt "India should buy Ef-2000" on different forums.(May be there was any official report that i might have missed or forgot, but i dnt think so)

Mirage-2000 = It is out of the list. There is already a thread abt it that Mirage2000 is out of the race.

MiG-29M2/35 = Right on top of the list.

It seems like IAF is woundering between the F-18 & MiG-29/35.

BTW whats a SuperBug???
-
 

aaaditya

New Member
SABRE said:
You forgot the IAF 'Jaguars' China white. Dont know how many Jaguars are in IAF service.

Besides the Indian Airforce, the Indian Navy also has 'Harriers.'



F-16 = The Indians dont seem to be into F-16s. It is the F-18 that is on top of the table.

Rafale = Rejected by the IAF

EF-2000 = No official word on it, just kids talking abt "India should buy Ef-2000" on different forums.(May be there was any official report that i might have missed or forgot, but i dnt think so)

Mirage-2000 = It is out of the list. There is already a thread abt it that Mirage2000 is out of the race.

MiG-29M2/35 = Right on top of the list.

It seems like IAF is woundering between the F-18 & MiG-29/35.

BTW whats a SuperBug???

-
superbug stands for superhornet.

the rafale and the ef2000 have been officially included in the mrca competition,also there have been article in various indian and other defence sites that the number of units will be increased from the present 126 combat aircrafts to nearly 200(most probably the order will be split betwean two types)and will also include some for the navy,the rfp's are to be issued sometime in april.the rafale was first offered to the iaf in the 90's but was rejected since it was still in the developmental stage and was unproven,besides india was in no posistion to acquire such an expensive aircraft,recently it was offered to the indian navy for the gorshkov class of aircraft carrier but was rejected in the favour of the mig29k.
 

zoolander

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
i am new to this thing. I am sorry for stealing ur materal:D

dont even include the mca because that is still in early planning and the lca should not be included because it rumored to fully operational by around 2010. The current prototypes can barely fly.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

chinawhite

New Member
SABRE said:
You forgot the IAF 'Jaguars' China white. Dont know how many Jaguars are in IAF service.
I didn't forget them i purposely left them out because they were mainly used as ground strike planes. While the Mig-27 is being used as one it is also being used as a interceptor and has some capabilities. But pretty much left out the bombers

And about the MRCA deal, its all about polictics. If you think about it most arms deal are not about the best capability but what side of the fence you want to sit on. If the american wins polictical favour then its the superhornet*. And if the indians really want a good cheap very capable fighter then its the Mig-35. But if they are willing to spend more on the already 8billion deal thens its the choice between the EF and rafale. But the EF would almost surely lose since it does not yet have a good multi-role capability and the indians will have to wait until the tranche 3 comes out.

But if i had the choice to choose a fighter i would have to say the superhornet. It has the range capabbility and technology the indians are looking for at a resonable price, While the Mig-35 might have the bells and whistals but in reality not spectaular in any one area. Might have TVC "custom" avonincs but its technology will soon be old when the complete deal is finished.

But to look at the indian airforce its mainly a russian and french force while india does not have any american equipment and buying might cause logistic problems and other troubles of different training. But one very large case againest america is sanctions. Remember 1998 where india tested its atomic bombs and a lot of indian projects were built on american aid. Like the LCA which the indians blame the slow progress on because of sanctions(while i dont think so). I have never seen russia or france put sanctions on india and this is their advantage because they have proven to be normally reliable

What is really being talked about is a policital concession between two of the fighters where their is one bigger share and one smaller share. Before the entry of the EF and Rafale the rumour was it was 126 MIg-35s and the rest of them SUperhornets. But know with the entry of these two fighters which are a lot more capable this might change it dramtically. I know the french are lobbying very hard and britian is practically interested. The russians also have slashed their prices and increased capabilitiy and the americans are just making promises

End Note

"Arms trades are not dictated by market practices or capitalism" -- Chinawhite
 

chinawhite

New Member
zoolander said:
i am new to this thing. I am sorry for stealing ur materal
:wink: I was joking lol

dont even include the mca because that is still in early planning and the lca should not be included because it rumored to fully operational by around 2010.
I doubt the project is even running now. I dont know, everything is up in the air now and nothing is predictable thus far
 

zoolander

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
i read that the LCA has alot of problems. The main concern is their engine. The rest are little things. There are high noise levels in the cockpit and etc. The prototype cant even go near supersonic.

The J-10 mainwhile is already in mass production and possibily being upgraded in the next 2 years.

TVC, better electronics, WS-10A?

The main problem with India is the reliance on other nations for military hardware. While China is not exactly independent, India's defence industry is just pityful. 35 years for a plane?

[ Admin Edit: Post everything in one reply... don't come back in 1 minute to post another reply. Having more posts is NOT going to help you around here. ]

The emerging difference between the chinese and indians are EW and CS4 abilitys. China is emergin as a victor in this.

Both is develping advanced SAMs. While China already came out with self made systems, India is also investing advanced SAMs.

India is rumored to be paying Russia to make a Super S-400 SAM
 
Last edited by a moderator:

dabrownguy

New Member
The Rafale is still on the table. IAF didn't reject it. Its more likily that they will buy them. Dassualt is definitly confident.
As for the list. IAF will have 190 Su-30MKI by 2015. 126-200 MRCA.
 

chinawhite

New Member
No Comment on the LCA :pope

zoolander said:
The J-10 mainwhile is already in mass production and possibily being upgraded in the next 2 years. TVC, better electronics, WS-10A?
While speculating on the uncertain is not what i do. But all those upgrades would make a J-10 impressive none the least

The main problem with India is the reliance on other nations for military hardware.
While i must agree that indias domestic industy is no shinning becon, It does buy military gear from other countries which are more advanced than china but if we factor domestic industires into this it would have to be a long term objective


Whats your timeline for you conflict?. That would give us a better understanding of what military gear would be avaible. This so far has been vague comparisons between aircraft from different generations
 

aaaditya

New Member
zoolander said:
i read that the LCA has alot of problems. The main concern is their engine. The rest are little things. There are high noise levels in the cockpit and etc. The prototype cant even go near supersonic.

The J-10 mainwhile is already in mass production and possibily being upgraded in the next 2 years.

TVC, better electronics, WS-10A?

The main problem with India is the reliance on other nations for military hardware. While China is not exactly independent, India's defence industry is just pityful. 35 years for a plane?

[ Admin Edit: Post everything in one reply... don't come back in 1 minute to post another reply. Having more posts is NOT going to help you around here. ]

The emerging difference between the chinese and indians are EW and CS4 abilitys. China is emergin as a victor in this.

Both is develping advanced SAMs. While China already came out with self made systems, India is also investing advanced SAMs.

India is rumored to be paying Russia to make a Super S-400 SAM
the rumour is that india has signed a 10 billion dollarn contract with russia to help develop an indigenous atbm system.

agreed that the main problem with the lca is the engine,the french snecma has been selected in principle to act as a consultant for the development of the kaveri engine.

actually i dont know about china's ew and cs4 capabilities,but india's is pretty impressive,they have recently acquired aerostat radars and have deployed them along their western borders in gujrat and punjab,these have the latest israeli ew radars,india currently has two israeli grean pine(swordfish radars) capable of detecting fighters at a range of in excess of 500kms ,they are now trying to reverse engineer them.the indian airforce has now been fully integrated through the it capability .
 

aaaditya

New Member
here is an interesting article which gives some idea of india's ew and networking capability.

check out this link:

http://www.gujaratglobal.com/nextSub.asp?id=960&cattype=NEWS


Indian Air Force will soon have India’s first Aerostate operational in the border district of Kutch. This was disclosed by Air Marshal S.K.Jain here today.
Air Marshal who retired from the post of commander in Chief South Western Air Command today said that the Aerostate in Kutch is Helium filled balloon carrying ultra modern radar. He said that this would give IAF great operational advantage since the radar would be able to cross the barrier of direct land vision.
The Aerostate has been imported from Israel and has some US parts also fitted. The balloon goes to the height of about 15,000 to 20,000 ft and this gives aerial view to the radar across the border.
The Air Marshal said that two Aerostate have been imported. The other balloon machine is being installed along Punjab border.
To a question, he said that the war of future will be technology driven war and India was quite equipped for it. To sum it up he said “I can run the war without picking up phone”. We have such Internet and wide area network system, Air Marshal said.
About technology he said that fund was no problem. He stressed that the IAF needed appropriate technology and there was no fun in spending money on costlier advanced technology.
About land from Gujarat government for the SWAC headquarters, he said that he had made a formal request to Chief Minister Narendra Modi that 100-acre land be given a reasonable price and the response of the government was positive.
Gujarat Government has quoted a price of Rs.291 crore for 100 acres of land in Gandhinagar for the head quarters of South Western Air command (SWAC).
The Air Force wants to develop its campus over 270-acre land. It already has in its possession 170 acre. It approached the State Government for additional 100 acre. The campus site is in the Chiloda area on the outskirts of Gandhinagar.
 

chinawhite

New Member
The green pine radars are part of the arrorow defence system which is a mini ABM system have in place on the indian pakistani border. Not lacking in capability for the system but very limited in scope

the rumour is that india has signed a 10 billion dollarn contract with russia to help develop an indigenous atbm system.
Unlikey since the russians ABM is non existant or completely obsolete. And their ATBM is basically the S-300 reworked. And by the way where do these rumours sterm from?
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
aaaditya said:
the rumour is that india has signed a 10 billion dollarn contract with russia to help develop an indigenous atbm system.

agreed that the main problem with the lca is the engine,the french snecma has been selected in principle to act as a consultant for the development of the kaveri engine.

actually i dont know about china's ew and cs4 capabilities,but india's is pretty impressive,they have recently acquired aerostat radars and have deployed them along their western borders in gujrat and punjab,these have the latest israeli ew radars,india currently has two israeli grean pine(swordfish radars) capable of detecting fighters at a range of in excess of 500kms ,they are now trying to reverse engineer them.the indian airforce has now been fully integrated through the it capability .
not sure why we are getting into ATBM now. Try not to get into a flaming like these topics normally get into.

Don't assume that S-300V or even S-400 means a blanket against Ballistic Missiles. The Russians claim a lot of things like S-400 is effective against stealth objects, depsite the fact that they don't have any stealth fighters of their own to test it with.

As for Chinese's EW capability, you can just think that China already has an entire network of S-300 and HQ-9 set up along with so called Stealth detectors and numerous phased array radars set up for detection and such. They have been making some exports with these radars, so they should be decent in capability.
 
Top