Pakistan test its first cruise missile "BABUR"

highsea

New Member
It's more east-west numerology. AFAIK, the DH-10 is the same as the HN-2, which is basically the same as the HN-1, except for a larger fuel tank. Next week there will be another set on numbers added on, lol. It's the same kind of confusion the USSR tried to create with their various designations.

Wrt the JY-63, it seems odd that they would field a "first-generation" LACM after a second-gen...

Anyhow, China has had these since at least 1992, in one form or another. And they have lots of experience with the various Russian missiles, some purchased direct, and some from Ukraine.

As far as the Babur, I don't think Pakistan is manufacturing turbojets, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but they must be using at least a Chinese engine, who knows what else. And they need an INS system, TERCOM, etc. This stuff has to come from somewhere, obviously China is the likely source.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Here are some previous reports/news items on turbojet related tests, etc.

Jane's Missiles and Rockets, Dec 1 2002 issue:

Pakistan tests sea-skimming UAV
David C Isby

Pakistan has announced it has tested technology for a sea-skimming version of its 35km-range National Development Complex (NDC) delta-wing Nishan Mk 2TJ target drone.

The "surface-skimming module" was announced when this turbojet-powered version of the Nishan had been displayed in 2001, but this has apparently been the first test of the capability.

The Nishan Mk 2 TJ has a maximum speed of 370km/h, a 42kg takeoff weight and can carry a 12kg payload. The announcement was apparently made to counter India's successful test in June of the BrahMos anti-ship missile being developed in co-operation with Russia.

It suggests that Pakistan is investing in technologies that would enable it to develop indigenous anti-ship missiles comparable to the BrahMos.

In the interim, however, the modified Nishan would allow Pakistan to develop countermeasures against surface-skimming threats.

-------------------------------

Pakistan's aerial target could spawn cruise missile

Source: Jane's Defence Weekly
ANDREW KOCH JDW Bureau Chief
Washington DC

Pakistan's Integrated Defence Systems (IDS) recently finished developing a turbojet-powered aerial target capable of simulating jet aircraft threats, company officials revealed.

The development marks the first time

Pakistan has been able to develop a turbojet target variant, which could in turn represent a small technical step toward obtaining an indigenous cruise missile capability.

Called the Nishan-Mk 2TJ, the system has a maximum speed of 370km/h, a maximum range of 35km, and an endurance of 1h. The vehicle is 9ft 8in (2.9 m) long, has a wingspan of 9ft 2in, and has a 42kg take-off weight, including a 12kg payload. The air vehicle is capable of carrying a variety of payloads, including what IDS officials describe as a "sea-skimming module", smoke and infra-red flares, an acoustic and Doppler radar miss distance indicator system, radar altimeter and optical cameras.

The Nishan-Mk 2TJ's significance, however, lies in the fact that IDS is the commercial arm of Pakistan's strategic weapons development laboratory, the National Development Complex (NDC), which develops the country's solid-fuelled ballistic missiles, among other projects. Expertise from those endeavours, combined with experience in developing IDS' line of unmanned air vehicles (UAVs), would give the NDC a basis from which to develop a cruise missile, should it decide to do so. The Nishan-Mk 2TJ's engine would provide a further technical basis, as it marks the first turbojet to power any Pakistani UAV or aerial target.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
highsea said:
As far as the Babur, I don't think Pakistan is manufacturing turbojets, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but they must be using at least a Chinese engine, who knows what else. And they need an INS system, TERCOM, etc. This stuff has to come from somewhere, obviously China is the likely source.
Engine,INS,TERCOM :i think all these are major parts of cruise missile,if they get all these from china then what will pakistan make?

And also GPS or GLONASS is also important i think.

But my major worry is if the Missile can really be armed with Nuke Warheads then it can start an arms race.
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Ajay,

It can start an arms race!!!! So what do you think we have been doing so far, if not an arms race. It is a wake up call to india. Wake up and smell the roses. We still have time for kissing and making up.

Sri,

Sir, you seem to be very unhappy over these developments. One must remember that engineering technology is a frame of mind. Some people, actually some races and ethnic groups will accept and manufacture engineering designs in a more procreative and advanced manner than the other groups regardless of the financial restraints. Some ethnicities will produce better weapons related machinery and others may do good in computer related industry. It is just how the grey matter works. So, don't be unhappy at us. Just wait for another 10 to 15 years and then see what we will do if there are no further sanctions on us.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Some people, actually some races and ethnic groups will accept and manufacture engineering designs in a more procreative and advanced manner than the other groups regardless of the financial restraints. Some ethnicities will produce better weapons related machinery and others may do good in computer related industry.
ROFL! But no, I don't want to be part of "which race is intellectually superior" discussion. But ROFL!

Adsh,
No Spy sats and Weather sats are not the same.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
WebMaster said:
Here are some previous reports/news items on turbojet related tests, etc.
Yes, that is apparently one of the most widely accepted school of thoughts. The Nishan was a probably technology demonstrator for the Hatf-VII.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
VICTORA1 said:
Ajay,

Sri,

Sir, you seem to be very unhappy over these developments. One must remember that engineering technology is a frame of mind. Some people, actually some races and ethnic groups will accept and manufacture engineering designs in a more procreative and advanced manner than the other groups regardless of the financial restraints. Some ethnicities will produce better weapons related machinery and others may do good in computer related industry. It is just how the grey matter works. So, don't be unhappy at us. Just wait for another 10 to 15 years and then see what we will do if there are no further sanctions on us.
VictorA1, Your comments are very objectionable. Please clear your mind and stay away from such thoughts.

Sri, I aplogize for such comments directed at you. My origins are from Pakistan too but I believe in the equality of all.

Now regarding the Babar, I will say one thing. Looks like people are trying more to find its ancestry than thinking what its implication will be in the region. Whether some one likes it or not, Pakistan has a cruise missile and no one can change the facts. Please give your your opinion how the presence of this missile affect the military equation between Pakistan and India.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Sri, I aplogize for such comments directed at you. My origins are from Pakistan too but I believe in the equality of all.
Thank you sir. I personally too believe that not all Pakistani's share those thoughts that Victora1 posted.

-----

Here's a related report that I found from Washington Post archives about the Tomahawk recovered from Afghanistan in 98.

http://www.anomalous-images.com/news/news245.html said:
Pakistanis Say They Are Studying U.S. Missile
Tomahawk Reportedly Was Recovered After Raid on Camps in Afghanistan


By Kamran Khan
Special to The Washington Post
Friday, August 28, 1998

KARACHI, Pakistan, Aug. 27—Pakistani scientists and weapons experts are studying components salvaged from an American cruise missile that landed last week in southern Pakistan, security sources said today. They expressed optimism that they could unlock technological secrets that will advance Pakistan's missile program.

Officials said experts associated with Pakistan's civilian and military missile programs were inspecting the guidance system, onboard computer and propulsion system of the Tomahawk missile, which was fired Aug. 20 in the U.S. attack on camps in Afghanistan but apparently fell short of its target.

Some sources indicated that information obtained by examining the missile might be shared with China, Pakistan's ally, but officials refused to comment on that possibility.

A Pakistani official speaking on condition of anonymity said the find was "a jackpot" that included the satellite global positioning system and other technological improvements made to Tomahawks since the 1991 Persian Gulf War. "We have missile experts who would most certainly demonstrate a remarkable job of reverse engineering" and develop technological know-how that Pakistan lacks, the official said.

Pakistan reported earlier this week that it had recovered the missile Saturday near Kharan, about 370 miles south of the targeted camps in Afghanistan. Pentagon officials have declined to confirm that a missile landed in Pakistan or to comment on the implications for Pakistan and China which hope to acquire cruise missiles.

The Pakistani sources noted with some surprise that the missile was largely intact when it was discovered. Sources in Washington said the Tomahawk might not have detonated because the arming mechanism is not activated until minutes before the missile reaches its target.

Retired Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney said he doubted the Pakistani claims. When cruise missiles crash, he said, "its like dropping a Waterford crystal glass. They are designed to do a lot of things, but they aren't designed to bounce. They are very fragile." What did not break apart on impact would probably have been burned by the missile's fuel which would ignite on impact, he said.

U.S. defense officials also scoffed at the notion that the Pakistanis had gained an intelligence windfall, suggesting that the Tomahawk's technology already is widely available and noting that the loss of several such missiles during the Persian Gulf War is not known to have produced any breakthroughs for Iraq.

But a ranking security official in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital, pointed out that restrictions on technological transfers between the United States and Pakistan have been in effect for nearly a decade. Since 1990, when Washington cut military aid because it believed Pakistan had developed a nuclear bomb, information that the Pentagon might readily provide to another nation would have been harder to come by here, he said.

"It is a gift from the God," the official said. "The country that had denied us all sorts of economic and military assistance has suddenly gifted us the weapon of choice from its arsenal."

He voiced a note of caution, however, saying: "This will definitely enhance our knowledge about the latest missile technology, but how much -- it is too early to predict."

Other sources also acknowledged that they were unlikely to extract enough information from the Tomahawk components to be able to reproduce such a missile. They said, however, that their need for the kind of advanced weaponry found in U.S. arsenals is limited, and that they would be happy for even limited gains in missile technology.

"Pakistan is not the global player," one official said, adding that its defense needs are geared more toward dealing with "its arch-rival that lives next door."

Tensions between Pakistan and neighboring India, with which it has fought three wars in the last 51 years, have been high since both nations tested nuclear devices in May. While their nuclear programs have been the focus of world attention since the tests, the rivals' competition to develop more advanced, longer-range missiles has been almost as intense.

Officials declined to comment on whether Pakistan might share any discoveries with China, a close ally that the United States has repeatedly accused of helping Pakistan with its missile program.

Gen. Jehangir Karamat, the Pakistani army's chief of staff who heads the joint chiefs of staff, is currently touring China. A senior official at army headquarters said today that Karamat has been briefed on the initial reports from Pakistani scientists on the Tomahawk missile. "In view of extremely close ties between the two military services," the official said, he would be surprised if the findings were not discussed with Chinese officials.

U.S. government and private cruise missile experts said that while an intact Tomahawk would be of limited benefit to the Pakistanis, it could be of significant help to the more advanced Chinese military.

Of most immediate concern, said K. Scott McMahon, a national security expert with Pacific-Sierra Research Corp., an Arlington-based defense consultant firm, would be the ability of the Chinese to incorporate the missile's radar image into the air defense systems it sells to such nations as Albania, Iran, North Korea and Pakistan. "It would enable the Chinese to enhance their air defense system against what is arguably the most serious missile threat out there," he said. "The air defense implications for the Chinese are something we have to be seriously concerned about."

Experts said the Chinese have the technological know-how to study and to eventually copy the missile's guidance system, which matches photographic images of a target and surrounding terrain against the actual terrain it flies over. It also incorporates a satellite-based global positioning system.

The Chinese also could gain useful knowledge from studying the missile's airframe material, electronics, warhead and turbo-fan engine, experts said.

Staff writers Dana Priest and Bradley Graham in Washington contributed to this report.

© Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company
 

naveedahmed

New Member
Dear Sri,


What counts is the end results...this is a fact that Pakistan has the capability now.... and we are happy. whatever be the path of getting this "BABUR" domestic/reverse engineered/HN-1/Tomahawk.
 
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lakhani

New Member
Musharraf lauds pinpoint accuracy of indigenous effort

By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: In a major development in modern warfare, Pakistan on Thursday conducted a successful test flight of its first-ever 500-kilometers range Ground Launched Cruise Missile (GLCM) Babur (Hatf-VII) with pinpoint accuracy.

By conducting this successful test, Pakistan has also advanced its missile programme as cruise missiles are typically low-flying guided missiles that use jet propulsion to allow sustained flight. Pakistan also joined a selected group of countries, which have the capability to design and develop cruise missiles. These missiles can be launched from surface ships, submarines and aircraft.

Cruise Missile Babur is designed and developed by an elite team of scientists and engineers of Pakistan’s Strategic Organization. "By the Grace of Almighty Allah, all design parameters for the flight were validated," said a military statement on this test-fire.

President General Pervez Musharraf, who congratulated the nation on successful test-fire of this indigenously developed cruise missile Babur, described it as a great stride in Pakistan’s defence capability and a gift to the nation on the eve of Independence Day falling on August 14.

"We are proud of this achievement, we shall never let our deterrence level come down and today’s test also manifests our resolve to further reinforce our defence capabilities," Musharraf told reporters at Aiwan-e-Sadr.

Babur is a train-hugging missile and it has the most advanced and modern navigation and guidance system and a high degree of manoeuvrability. Its technology enables the missile to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defensive system, said ISPR.

Musharraf also termed it a major milestone in Pakistan’s quest for strengthening and consolidating Pakistan’s strategic capability, which was a cornerstone of our national security. He also reiterated Pakistan’s resolve to continue to meet emerging challenges and geo-strategic developments in its neighbourhood, as Pakistan’s security was not negotiable.

The test of Pakistan’s first-ever cruise missile took place on the 62nd birthday of Musharraf, though the timing of the test was determined more by the readiness of scientists, the weather and the celebrations of Pakistan’s Independence Day.

Babur was launched vertically with the solid booster motor. Immediately after the launch its guidance and control system takes over and it gains speed and after a few seconds its rocket booster motor is separated. Then the missile automatically opens its wing as a jet plane, and moves towards its target. Special cameras installed in the missile, control and manage its height by minutely monitoring ups and downs of land.

source:http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html
 

P.A.F

New Member
Anyway. i saw a pentegon briefing on the missile test pakistan has carried out. the guy repeatedly said that "this is no suprise. pakistan has been trying to get this capability for several years now".
This may suggest that the US knew about the Tomahawks in pakistan????.
He stated that pakistan has been working on this for atleast 7 years.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
naveedahmed said:
Dear Sri,


What counts is the end results...this is a fact that Pakistan has the capability now.... and we are happy. whatever be the path of getting this "BABUR" domestic/reverse engineered/HN-1/Tomahawk.
I never denied the capability. I'm glad you're happy.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
P.A.F said:
Anyway. i saw a pentegon briefing on the missile test pakistan has carried out. the guy repeatedly said that "this is no suprise. pakistan has been trying to get this capability for several years now".
This may suggest that the US knew about the Tomahawks in pakistan????.
He stated that pakistan has been working on this for atleast 7 years.
Dates are adding up. 1998 (Clinton's Tomahawk lands in Afghanistan), 2005 (Pakistani test) - it's seven years alright. Yep, the Americans would know about it, considering it was published in The Washington Post :p
 

P.A.F

New Member
Posted by P.A.F Anyway. i saw a pentegon briefing on the missile test pakistan has carried out. the guy repeatedly said that "this is no suprise. pakistan has been trying to get this capability for several years now".
This may suggest that the US knew about the Tomahawks in pakistan????.
He stated that pakistan has been working on this for atleast 7 years.


Dates are adding up. 1998 (Clinton's Tomahawk lands in Afghanistan), 2005 (Pakistani test) - it's seven years alright. Yep, the Americans would know about it, considering it was published in The Washington Post :p
so basically sri, the americans where expecting this kind of test to happen in the future. So its no suprise and shouldn't be.:)
 

P.A.F

New Member
http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/12/nat1.htm


New missile big boost to defence, say experts




By Our Correspondent
WASHINGTON, Aug 11: By developing a cruise missile, Pakistan has given a significant boost to its arsenal, says Robert Karniol, Asia-Pacific editor for Jane’s Defence Weekly.

His comments were published on US news websites on Thursday with comments by other defence experts, some saying that Pakistan had been trying to develop a cruise missiles for several years.

While Babur’s payload capacity and weight of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons were not known, cruise missiles would be a significant boost to its arsenal, said Mr Karniol.

He said he expects Pakistan to now focus on developing a submarine-launched system. “These kinds of capabilities are very significant strike weapons.â€

Some experts said the Babur missile, with its 500km range, was superior to India’s Brahmos cruise missile, which has a range of 290km.

Others said it matched Brahmos, although the Pakistan missile does not have a supersonic range like Brahmos.

___________________________________________________

for the rest of article click on link.
 

roadrunner12

New Member
srirangan said:
Dates are adding up. 1998 (Clinton's Tomahawk lands in Afghanistan), 2005 (Pakistani test) - it's seven years alright. Yep, the Americans would know about it, considering it was published in The Washington Post :p
The word "several years now" does not mean the missile has been developed since 1998. It may have been developed for 10 years+.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
P.A.F said:
Anyway. i saw a pentegon briefing on the missile test pakistan has carried out. the guy repeatedly said that "this is no suprise. pakistan has been trying to get this capability for several years now".
This may suggest that the US knew about the Tomahawks in pakistan????.
He stated that pakistan has been working on this for atleast 7 years.
Pakistan has been onto Cruise Missiles for atleast 10 years. I wont give you source here. I learned this when my uncle was in PPP govt (lets keep his name secret as well). Back than I was dumb in these cases but I herd this word alot back than.

It was not the army but the navy which wanted the project to be pursued.

As far as I remember when PPP govt was elected Pakistan had already started the project. Which could mean that it could be more 10 year old project.

The reason the BABUR looks similar to Tomahawk could be that either Pakistan studied what ever specifications were available on Tomahawk (along with its pics). This would make BABUR look similar only & its working could be different or Pakistan might have gone back to modifications after we picked up Tomahawk from Balochistan.

I dont think it was posted in any news or report but the PTV (state run TV) showed the interview of the boy who showed the Rangers where the Tomahawk had crashed. The boy said he was there when the rocket crashed. He has said that the Rocket 1st slowed down & than hit the ground started to glide or slide on the surface & when it came to hault he went to inspect it. Later he had called ran to near by Rangers camp to inform them.

Looks like the Tomahawk actualy made a crash landing instead of just crashing.

I dont why but I remember seeing this on the news when US attacked Afghans.

Can TomaHawk do this, make a crash landing?
 
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