NZDF LTDP 2006 update

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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Wow, check out pages 49-50. The torpedoes are expected to become unsupportable in 2008-2009... Without that, the Anzac, P-3K and SH-2G(NZ) won't have an ASW capability. An the replacement is not likely to be affordable until 2015:shudder

I hope some of thes priorities get re-arranged...
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Wow, check out pages 49-50. The torpedoes are expected to become unsupportable in 2008-2009... Without that, the Anzac, P-3K and SH-2G(NZ) won't have an ASW capability. An the replacement is not likely to be affordable until 2015:shudder

I hope some of thes priorities get re-arranged...
You beat me to it I was just about to comment, what a joke, idiots, don't rearrange the priorities though, they are all pretty standard issues just boost the funding, however the other projects if fully funded will be the force up to scratch somewhat, espescially if the incoporate the ANZACs fully (aspossible)into the RAN upgrade program
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Wow, check out pages 49-50. The torpedoes are expected to become unsupportable in 2008-2009... Without that, the Anzac, P-3K and SH-2G(NZ) won't have an ASW capability. An the replacement is not likely to be affordable until 2015:shudder

I hope some of thes priorities get re-arranged...
Why do the P-3K's require a new Torpedo anyway? The NZ Government decided against funding the upgrade of the anti-submarine mission systems on the P-3K and as the current versions were fitted in the early 80's, IIRC, how much longer can they support the systems anyway?

Not much use having a weapon, when you can't detect a threat...

What I found unbelievable was the amount of reporting the NZDF is required to do to get the Minister to approve ANYTHING...

Some of the capabilities listed in that plan are down right laughable. Not the capabilities themselves mind you, but the way the LTDP reads to me, is an attempt to justify capabilities that are REQUIRED by every other military in the world.

In NZ (or perhaps should I call it "Wonderland"?) These basic military capabilities are questioned to the 9th degree. A maritime counter mine capability is a project that "has benefit" for crying out loud!!!
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I double checked it, per the LTDP, the current Mk 46 Mod 2 torpedoes in use by the NZDF are expected to be unsupportable by 2008-2009. The torpedoes are the ASW for use by all NZDF assets, the P-3K, the Anzac Frigate and the SH-2G(NZ) Seasprites...

Right now, reading the LTDP, I come away with the sense that there are 4 priorities to possible projects.

In descending order:
Critical
Essential
Necessary
Beneficial

Right now the torpedoe replacement is only considered a "Necessary" project. Given that NZ will have no ASW capability without them, I would think that torpedoe replacement would be moved up to Essential, if not Critical status. Particularly given that the areas of Interest could see an increase in non-allied SSKs.

Otherwise though, I do like the possibility of the RNZN adopting at least some, of the RAN Anzac upgrades. Would like to see RNZN with Harpoon though. We'll just have to wait and sea... (yeah, I know, bad pun)
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
To be fair I am quite impressed with the possibility of acquiring sat communications that does so some fore sight and common sense and by the sounds of the project a decision will have to be made sooner, I suppose due to a satellite payload space being available.
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
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Why do the P-3K's require a new Torpedo anyway? The NZ Government decided against funding the upgrade of the anti-submarine mission systems on the P-3K and as the current versions were fitted in the early 80's, IIRC, how much longer can they support the systems anyway?

Not much use having a weapon, when you can't detect a threat...

What I found unbelievable was the amount of reporting the NZDF is required to do to get the Minister to approve ANYTHING...

Some of the capabilities listed in that plan are down right laughable. Not the capabilities themselves mind you, but the way the LTDP reads to me, is an attempt to justify capabilities that are REQUIRED by every other military in the world.

In NZ (or perhaps should I call it "Wonderland"?) These basic military capabilities are questioned to the 9th degree. A maritime counter mine capability is a project that "has benefit" for crying out loud!!!
Gee go easy on us...we lost the netball and the league, now this! :shudder

Seriously though, at leasst the basics are there. ANZAC upgrade may very well link into the RAN ANZAC upgrade (with $450m-$500m), current mission system upgrade on the P3 may just require the correct gadgets to be plugged in.

Also, and I don't want this to stray into politics, but a change of direction may happen after the next election (2008 or sooner), which can build some of the more currently unpopular capabilities back in.

For the record that will not IMHO include airstrike, but I think ASW is not going to be so hard. My thought/hopes. :rolleyes:
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With NZ replacing its fleet of general service vehicles, i'm curious
Whats the Light Operational vehicle they are looking at?
And could they merge their purchase with Australias to reduce cost? Might be better since future deployments would see both together, and ability to merge maintanence would serve well. But better chance of pigs flying, or NZ winning League...:rolleyes:
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
With NZ replacing its fleet of general service vehicles, i'm curious
Whats the Light Operational vehicle they are looking at?
And could they merge their purchase with Australias to reduce cost? Might be better since future deployments would see both together, and ability to merge maintanence would serve well. But better chance of pigs flying, or NZ winning League...:rolleyes:
LOV's been replaced by Pinzgauers, all bar one are in service including the spec op variant doing a op deployment to Afghanistan with the SAS, they are however in talks with the ADF over possible collabaration with replacement of the medium trucks trailers etc, ie UniMogs
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
A Brief of the "New" Projects

:rolleyes: New Defence Projects Detailed

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/Seven new defence acquisitions projects were announced today by the Minister of Defence, Phil Goff. The projects are included in the more than $1billion worth of spending remaining in the Long Term Development Plan.

"The third update of the Long Term Development Plan released today reports on both progress made in rebuilding the Defence Force and on seven new projects added to the Plan", Mr Goff said.

"The announcement of the NH90 acquisition, the single biggest defence purchase to date in the LTDP, completes the core capability projects on the ten year Plan.

"These have revolutionized defence force capabilities. The Army has state of the art light armoured and operational vehicles as well as new equipment such as radios, javelin missiles, and a fully operational air defence system.

"The Navy will see seven new ships added to its fleet all launched by the end of next year.

"The Air Force will have upgraded 757 passenger/freight planes, life-extended C-130 transport aircraft and P-3 surveillance planes with new mission, communication and navigation systems. Tenders were requested last week for six new Light Utility helicopters, valued at up to $110 million, to complement the eight new NH90 medium utility helicopters for which a contract has been signed.

"The seven new defence capital projects involve:

·a new fuel storage installation at Devonport Naval Base;

·a new power generation and reticulation system at the naval base;

·upgrading of the taxiways at Ohakea Air Base;

·options for replacement of the King Air training aircraft;

·upgrading of the ANZAC frigates' platform systems;

·upgrading the close in protection weapon systems for the ANZAC frigates; and

·investigation of a share in a satellite communication system for the Defence Force.

"The Long Term Development Plan sets out the priorities, timing, status and costs of the projects to be undertaken. It has the advantage of providing the Defence Force with greater financial certainty and ability to plan, to determine affordability, and to prioritise", Mr Goff said.

Just a quick list for those who can't be bothered to read it all :) By the sounds I don't think Sea Ram will be the upgrade for the CIWS looks like Phalanx Block 1B will have to do the trick
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I added up the items that haven't been financed as yet, the list totaled a maximum of 1660 million NZ$. A new item appeared which cost more than the Anzac frigate upgrades, its the general vehicle replacement at 550 million NZ$.

The Defence minister claimed NZ will spend 1 billion NZ$, which won't buy the entire list. Two items on the list approach the 1 billion limit, the combined Anzac frigate upgrades and the general vehicle replacement. Where is the extra half a billion going to come from?

Considering this year's 9 billion NZ$ surplus, I suggest NZ fund the entire LTDP this year and be done with it! Why wait?

What's missing on the LTDP are more ships: either frigates, patrol boats, or minehunters. Infrastructure work only besides the Anzac upgrades. Its the same with the air force. Infrastructure work only. At least the army is getting new general vehicles.

From the combined budget surpluses of the last several years, its obvious New Zealand could spend much more for defence if it wished too...
 
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NZLAV

New Member
Is the NZDF still planning to get anti-ship missiles for the orions? That would be such a great investment and a strike asset.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Is the NZDF still planning to get anti-ship missiles for the orions? That would be such a great investment and a strike asset.
The LTDP did mention an anti-ship capability for the Orions being possible, once other upgrades had been done to them. However, there wasn't any mention of what that AShM would be. Harpoon would be nice, but I'd be willing to settle for Penguin Mk 3... It would at least have greater range than a Maverick. How does the Kongsberg NSM sound? Particularly if the RAN starts fielding that in place of the Penguin on RAN helicopters.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I added up the items that haven't been financed as yet, the list totaled a maximum of 1660 million NZ$. A new item appeared which cost more than the Anzac frigate upgrades, its the general vehicle replacement at 550 million NZ$.

The Defence minister claimed NZ will spend 1 billion NZ$, which won't buy the entire list. Two items on the list approach the 1 billion limit, the combined Anzac frigate upgrades and the general vehicle replacement. Where is the extra half a billion going to come from?

Considering this year's 9 billion NZ$ surplus, I suggest NZ fund the entire LTDP this year and be done with it! Why wait?

What's missing on the LTDP are more ships: either frigates, patrol boats, or minehunters. Infrastructure work only besides the Anzac upgrades. Its the same with the air force. Infrastructure work only. At least the army is getting new general vehicles.

From the combined budget surpluses of the last several years, its obvious New Zealand could spend much more for defence if it wished too...
Totally agree - they tax us $9Bn more than necessary in 1 year and then tell us they can't spare an extra $600m or so over a 10 year period!

The fact is Defence really isn't a priority in this country (well not for Govt & most of the population). There's a few of us with our blinkers off but we're just told we're war-mongers!:eek:nfloorl:

Our Defence minister did quite a nice little put down of some protestors outside a Defence conference the other day - read his speech....

http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=27420

I guess at least they're trying to do something after all the years of neglect, but it's still tainted with a sense of deja-vu!

SeaToby - agreed they totally mis-understand the importance of MCM. Although the RNZN is getting new UUV's (REMUS); diver recon systems; and new MCM optimised dive gear (refer Oct 06 RNZN news link below) ....but we need much more in this area.

http://www.navy.mil.nz/know-your-navy/official-documents/navy-today.htm

Man, we need so much more in so many areas it's hard to know where to start! Agreed - stump up with all the cash from this year's surplus alone & get on with it I say!
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Maybe in another LTDP update several years in the future we'll see a possible minehunter to replace the diving tender. While I would prefer a Huon class type of minehunter, I would settle for a cheaper, simpler Sandown class. It doesn't appear this government is interested in adding more personnel to the defence forces other than to meet today's requirements. So our best hope is to see a better ship replace the older one with similar crew numbers.

While I would agree that not everything on the LTDP list is needed this year, I don't see why we can't fund all of it this year with some of the surplus, and buy these assets when the time is right a few years later. Funding today in my mind creates larger surpluses later. And as been noted before, considering the string of increasing surpluses, I cannot understand waiting several years to replace ASW torpedoes beyond their shelf life, which I consider are ordnance, not armaments.

Its also my opinion that every item on the LTDP list is or will be needed in the next five years. Like you, I can easily add more items to my shopping list which wouldn't necessarily add more personnel.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Two thoughts on the LTDP.

Remote Mine detection/MCM
Would NZ be interested in or try to acquire ex-USN Osprey class MHCs for MCM service? The entire class is scheduled to be decomissioned by the end of the 2008 fiscal year. Given that the first vessel was commissioned in 1993 and the last vessel in 1999, there should be a fair amount of service life left. If the US govt is willing to go along, the RNZN could get a good MCM vessel or vessels for less than the cost of a new ship.

Also, the LTDP mentioned a short-medium range aerial patrol capability, possibly from a commercial contractor. Is NZ looking at something similar to the Australian Coastwatch? It sounds somewhat similar to what Surveillance Australia is doing for Australian Customs. I take it that this aerial patrol is primarily for EEZ and SAR work. Does anyone have more info on what NZ is looking for in this respect?

-cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Currently it seems the New Zealand government and defence forces are happy with investigating different anti-mine submerisbles, the tools to do the job rather than buying a ship. They have maintained their divers as a stop-gap. I think the best we can hope for is for an upgrade to a minehunter when their diving tender will be replaced, some ten or more years in the future.

But I do agree, with the strings of ever increasing surpluses, it would be wise to buy a minehunter, even a fairly new used ex-Australian or American minehunter. I have mentioned before a British Sandown would be nice.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Currently it seems the New Zealand government and defence forces are happy with investigating different anti-mine submerisbles, the tools to do the job rather than buying a ship. They have maintained their divers as a stop-gap. I think the best we can hope for is for an upgrade to a minehunter when their diving tender will be replaced, some ten or more years in the future.

But I do agree, with the strings of ever increasing surpluses, it would be wise to buy a minehunter, even a fairly new used ex-Australian or American minehunter. I have mentioned before a British Sandown would be nice.
One of the Moa had been rigged partially for a MCM role in addition to the navy divers. While investigating ROV is nice, the navy would also need somewhere to operate it from unless the plan was to use shore-based ROV. That would limit NZ MCM to areas around NZ, which leaves NZ vessels vulnerable when not in home waters, even with mine-avoidance sonar.

Given that the USN has already started selling off or giving away the Ospreys I was wondering if NZ has requested or bid on one.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
The article below in NZ's Dominion Post newspaper (one of the biggest in NZ) beautifully sums up NZ's contribution to Asia-Pacific defence capability. It almosts makes me cry - especially when I see what those (lucky) damn Aussies are getting!:(

I guess articles like tis can only serve to help foster change. NZer's seem to be coming far more aware of what the NZDF is all about & what they are required for (result of current & recent missions) - which can only be good. There's still a long way to go & some deep philosophical issues to be overcome, but things do seem to be slowly starting to change.

Read on....I 've pasted the article in here c'os the website posting this don't keep a story archive, they remove stories within a matter of days.

====================================================

Dominion Post - 24 October 2006
By HANK SCHOUTEN


The Defence Force annual report makes bleak reading – the armed forces appear to be almost as run down and decrepit as the railways.


As with the railways, defence has suffered from decades of neglect and under-investment, and has faced dramatic cuts such as the loss of its air combat capability.

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Findout how to get quake safeBut the Government is committed to spending more than $7.6 billion to rebuild the military.

The army has new fleets of light armoured vehicles and light operational vehicles, sophisticated radios and new missiles – providing such a leap in capability that it is still to come to grips with how it will operate in future.

The navy will take delivery of six new patrol craft and a multi-role ship next year, but its two Anzac frigates will shortly need midlife upgrades.

Work is also under way on a big makeover for the air force, which awaits delivery of new helicopters and upgrades of its Orion patrol aircraft, Hercules transports and modified Boeing 757s.

The three services are striving to boost their manpower and big investments in defence bases and infrastructure are still needed.

AdvertisementAdvertisementHowever, it is an agonisingly slow process, not helped by the need to maintain overseas deployments.

There are 413 personnel serving on 13 operations overseas, the biggest being in East Timor, Afghanistan and the Solomon Islands.

The annual report indicates the army, navy and air force are all struggling to maintain operational capabilities in the face of staff shortages and aging equipment.

Even the army with its new equipment appears barely able to commit itself to a war zone. Most army units are undermanned – below 80 per cent of establishment – and are short of equipment.

"Deficiencies in command and control, firepower, and compatible protection for combat service support elements would impair effectiveness in conventional military operations and more demanding peace support operations," the report says.

The army is short of protective equipment, tents, communications specialists, radios and night vision and field engineering equipment.

The army's bomb disposal unit is also short of skilled personnel and equipment and there is also doubt about its ability to maintain medical services on operations.

The Defence Ministry has signalled that the army will have to begin replacing its truck fleet, beginning in 2011, at a cost of about $550 million.

The navy also faces significant problems.

It is so short of key staff, particularly helicopter air crew, bridge watchkeepers, warfare officers and technicians, that it is difficult to man its two frigates.

Critical shortages of instructors have affected the navy's ability to train pilots for the Seasprite helicopters and operations are limited, particularly for night flying.

The navy has enough divers for only one of its two operational diving teams and new equipment is needed to provide a more credible mine detection and removal capability.

The air force is having problems with its old, though soon to be upgraded, Orion and Hercules aircraft.

Age-related systems faults forced many Hercules flights to be delayed or cancelled. Shortages of spares affected their radar, self-protection system, hydraulics, engines, propellers and electrical, fuel, navigation and fire warning systems.

The Orion patrol aircraft are also showing their age, with computers that pick up the noise made by submarines and weapons fitted described as having "only marginal operational viability".

There are not enough air crew to sustain deployments and the Iroquois helicopter squadron is struggling.

The air force has suffered a "significant" loss of personnel and the "air crew state has compromised... the ability to meet designated outputs".

The helicopters themselves are not up to scratch. "The performance of the aircraft in bad weather, at night and in hot and high conditions is unsatisfactory."

Though the state of the air force is being addressed, it will take about five years before it gets back into some sort of shape.

Eight large French-built NH90s are on order at a cost of $771 million and tenders have just been called for six smaller training/utility helicopters budgeted to cost $110 million. However, they won't be in service before 2010.

The five Hercules transport aircraft are getting a life-extending rebuild and modernisation costing $234 million.

The first will be finished next year but the project won't be completed till 2010. Another $20 million-project to upgrade the Hercules' anti-missile self protection systems – needed to fly into hostile territory – is still to be approved.

The Orions are getting a $373 million upgrade to replace obsolete surveillance, communication and navigation systems. Work on the first Orion will finish in 2008, with the last not completed till 2010.

As with the Hercules, they need a self-protection capability to give them defence against shoulder-launched missiles.

The $40 million project is still to be approved, along with another proposal to fit the Orions with anti-ship missiles, a belated substitute for the loss of capability when the air combat force was scrapped five years ago.

The air force has also begun a massive project to consolidate virtually all its operations at Ohakea.

The runway was recently rebuilt but another $25 million is to be spent on rebuilding the bumpy and crumbling taxiways.

Costings are still to be done on new hangars and facilities needed for the extra 1300 staff to be based at Ohakea.

Though the navy is focused on preparing for the delivery of its seven new ships next year, it is also making some other big calls on the defence budget.

Last week Defence Minister Phil Goff announced $35 million would be spent to replace the power system and build a new fuel storage installation at Auckland's Devonport Naval Base.

He also approved another $60 million to $85 million on projects to update the Anzac frigates.

This includes a refit of their engines and heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems, as well as an upgrade of their Phalanx close-in weapon system – an automatic gun designed to be a last line of defence against attack missiles and high-speed attack craft.

But another $400 million to $500 million is still to be allocated for a much larger upgrade of the frigates' self-defence systems, including the installation of new Seasparrow anti-air missiles.

Though the frigates have been in service only since the early 1990s, most of their self-defence equipment was designed more than 20 years ago.

This project is set to start in 2010.

Torpedoes for the frigates, Seasprite helicopters and the Orion aircraft will also have to be replaced shortly.

The Defence Ministry says the present torpedoes need to be replaced by 2009 but the cost of doing that has not yet been published.

All three services have also begun rebuilding manpower under the Defence Sustainability Initiative announced last year. The aim is to have another 1500-2000 personnel within 10 years – a big increase on the 13,000 now in defence.

<ends>
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Another article I was going to post a link to has been removed so I had to dig around for details....appeared in a local paper late last week.

One thing the LTDP 2006 update doesn't even mention is UAV - it would seem the NZ Army is the only one on the planet not looking at them. Well this article last week shows the NZ Army is indeed looking at them - obviously as part oif the Land ISR capability mentioned in the LTDP.

They are currently trialling these models:

http://www.acrtucson.com/UAV/silverfox/index.htm

http://www.defense-update.com/products/s/skylite-B.htm

Plus 6 locally produced types all from the (NZ) Defence Technology Agency of roughly a similar size.

Can't say I'm convinced they offer the sorts of payload & range combination Army should be looking for but I guess at this stage it's early days in what is essentially described as a 'proof of concept' for NZ Army. ...Comments?
 
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