NZDF General discussion thread

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Have your say... I would write something but I would not be the best person to write it and get my point across with out being angry... :-/ And it is not the NZDF fault but the bean counters and gubberment

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Have your say... I would write something but I would not be the best person to write it and get my point across with out being angry... :-/ And it is not the NZDF fault but the bean counters and gubberment
Ok first of all that's a closed group so what's your point? What does it refer to? More context is required.
 

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Ok first of all that's a closed group so what's your point? What does it refer to? More context is required.
Opps my bad... I (bloody freaking hate FBook and the the way they share and link and embed posts it is different every time I do it... not only that i hate FB in general lol doh... lol) however sorry copied the wrong link... thought it was the original from the NZDF

NZDF asking general public in a general survey about NZDF future and asking New Zealanders to participate the Defence Policy Review.


or go Engage | Ministry of Defence Website
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Opps my bad... I (bloody freaking hate FBook and the the way they share and link and embed posts it is different every time I do it... not only that i hate FB in general lol doh... lol) however sorry copied the wrong link... thought it was the original from the NZDF

NZDF asking general public in a general survey about NZDF future and asking New Zealanders to participate the Defence Policy Review.


or go Engage | Ministry of Defence Website
Thanks. I agree about faceache. It can be a right PIA.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Last year the Ukrainian Ambassador to NZ submitted a written request to the NZ government for the excess NZLAV that NZ was trying to sell. The NZ govt refused the request citing various reasons why it couldn't send them to Ukraine. This was a political decision made at the highest level. There are accusations that one or more govt bureaucrats came up with the excuses and pushed DEFMIN Henare to accentuate all the difficulties to the Ukrainians. This is quite a despicable action by the NZ Government.

The details came from a OIA request by Newsroom that somebody forgot to block out the sensitive sections of the documents before they were released.

 

chis73

Active Member
To quote from the above article:

"I will reiterate the point: there is a limited shelf life for all of these particular platforms and we know too that the LAV is a bit of an older piece of kit, and getting parts is particularly difficult."
– Peeni Henare, Defence Minister
I don't know about you guys, but I find this an extraordinary statement from Mr Henare, a man who barely 3 months previous to this (Apr 20th, 2022) had signed off on a deal to sell 22 LAVs to Chile, and still wants to sell a further 8 as excess equipment. From the 2019 Defence capability plan the LAV replacement project isn't supposed to even start until 2024 (industry engagement), with an RFT not until 2025, and introduction to service not until 2033! One wonders how certain that timeline is now given Mr Henare's statements since assuming office that timeframes are going to be pushed out. Surely, a competent decision would have been to keep the excess as spares (after all, we had kept them mostly unused for nearly 20 years already, and sold the 22 vehicles to Chile for a grand total of $19m). If there is any justice in this world we may have a new defence minister later this week.
 
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Gooey

Well-Known Member
Nighthawk.NZ
Thanks for the link mate. Turns out you can submit more than one submission using the same IP.

chris71
To be honest, I was struck by DEFMINs meaningless word salad. It is given as if he has no respect for the question, audience, or position. Whatever mana he thought that he brought with him from 28 Battalion associate has been well washed ashore onto the beach of incompetence.

nga
This is entirely despicable. The NZ Government lack of action is both deliberate and two faced, after President Zs address to Parliament and our 'punching above our weight' tripe. In Australia or UK this would be front news and serious questions asked. Based on this alone there must be seriously pessimistic assumptions for the forthcoming Defence Review.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Guys I think a mountain is being made of a molehill here by Newsroom. Commentator Shane (who appears to have a linkage with the Army) has previously alluded to some LAV parts reaching end-of-life, needing replacement and IIRC can also be difficult to come by nowadays.

On the issue of sending "surplus" LAV's to Ukraine, my reading of the Newsroom article is it is referring to the remaining 8 that are still supposedly being offered for sale (not the original 30 - presumably negotiations were happening behind the scenes with Chile for 22 when the Ukraine war broke out in February 2022 and those 22 were therefore not available when politicians and media commentators started calling for them to be sent over).

IIRC these 30 "surplus" LAV's had been in storage for several years so presumably 22 had to be regenerated for sale to Chile? If so, that also means the remaining 8 would also need to be regenerated. This seems to align with what MinDef Henare is saying in the Newsroom article. (And pretty sure Reg talked about all this last year in the NZ Army thread when some of us were debating the surplus LAV situation).

So even if NZGovt were to change their minds and fund NZDF to regenerate the remaining 8 surplus LAV's for Ukraine (which with such a small number would be a symbolic move and not that practical in the wider scheme of internationally supplied armaments to Ukraine), it wouldn't end there for NZ or NZDF once they are shipped or flown over. Presumably NZDF would have to send over an Army support contingent (to Poland?), to maintain them (and train Ukraine personnel on how to operate them), which would be on-going for months/years. Spares and replacement parts would still have to be sent over which would probably mean cannibalising operational LAV's from NZ Army's Amoured Corps meaning training and readiness in NZ is impacted (let alone losing vital technical specialists and NCO's to Europe for months without an end date, that the Army is struggling to retain anyway/regenerate its combat and combined arms training programmes etc). Again this seems to align with what MinDef Henare is alluding to (in obviously alot less words in the Newsroom article).

Sure, could the NZGovt have said "stuff it" (and cancelled the sale to Chile) and send over 30 or so LAV's to Ukraine? Well there is much discussion on the Russian-Ukrainian War thread about the practicalities/impracticalities of Western Govts sending so many different types of kit. I suspect NZ doing it alone would mainly have been more symbolic and only somewhat practical, but also an uneconomic cost burden for such a small nation/Army as NZ (we must be one of the smallest nations offering support) as mentioned above.

BUT on the other hand if the Canadians had sent any surplus LAV III's (earlier-mid 2022 when this was being raised in NZ) or the USMC sent any surplus Strykers (and I'm not even sure if they have any surplus anyway?) and set up a logistics/support system ... which would allow NZ to "plug in" its 30 or so LAV's then sure that may have been more viable. But that never happened. And may also explain why NZDF were so hesitant to send LAV's last year.

As per the Newsroom article, NZ contributing funds to the UK to assist Ukraine to purchase SAM's for air defence seems to be a more practical priority for the Ukrainians and their infrastructure etc.

In terms of the remaining 8 surplus LAV's that are still supposedly for sale .... no-one (no other country) is going to buy a mere 8 of them. This or the next NZ Govt needs to be realistic by pulling them from the market and keeping them for attrition until the LAV's are finally replaced or upgraded.

(As the Ukraine war is reminding us (and many other nations), having fully functional attrition or stored capabilities in a necessity .... especially in these changing times as (non-democratic) country after country is now openly challenging the accepted rules based order that we have known since WW2).

Although as Chis is alluding to, to take 9 years (2024-2033) to acquire LAV replacements or upgrades is absurd. If spare parts is becoming more and more of an issue then surely unless their are significant upgrades (LAV6?) to keep ALL LAV's fully operational for another 10 years I would like to see the NZGovt explain how they will manage these issues or whether they intend to bring the replacement dates forward.
 

Gooey

Well-Known Member
Recce
Thanks for your considered points and explanation. I am attempting to put the reality hat on when digesting this. I understand we are where we are, but for NZ this is indicative of underfunding and NZGOV ignorance.
Fundamentally, the Ukraine war highlights how little our system understands national security and how little capability we have. Example: to not upgrade, organise, and send the 30 excess LAV to a nation we are allegedly supporting in a war of existence.
As per my comment about DEFMIN this smacks of a organisation which has no capacity and is uninterested.
 
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