North Korean IADS

[StobieWan]

I'm curious to find out what the general opinion is of the North Korean air defence system - as far as I can tell, it's very much of the same vintage that Iraq was fielding in the 1990's, with the addition of the SA-5/S200 Gammon missile system.

The SA-5 seems a bit long in the tooth to present much of a threat to a modern LO platform, and I believe North Korea got theirs when the Russians cleared out a lot of them in the mid eighties.

What kind of state of repair might the systems be in and how well provided with training and spares would they likely be?

Ian

 

[Feanor]

They should have all the technology to produce and maintain SA-2/3 and maybe even SA-5 systems, as well as local production of MiG-19 and MiG-21 fighters and munitions for them.

 

[Falstaff]

They should have all the technology to produce and maintain SA-2/3 and maybe even SA-5 systems, as well as local production of MiG-19 and MiG-21 fighters and munitions for them.

Hey Feanor, what makes you think so? Building a fighter jet, antique as it may be, requires a lot of resources. I find it somewhat hard to imagine that North Korea is as resourceful at the moment. Do you have any information about that or are you speculating?

 

[Feanor]

The technology for license production was, as far as I know, transfered over by the USSR. The platforms in question are not terribly advanced or complex, so I see no reason why the DPRK would lose the ability to produce them.

 

[StobieWan]

They should have all the technology to produce and maintain SA-2/3 and maybe even SA-5 systems, as well as local production of MiG-19 and MiG-21 fighters and munitions for them.

I tend to doubt very much that they're producing entire aircraft locally - based on the fact that as recently as 1999 the US uncovered a smuggling operation from Kazakhstan which had moved perhaps as many as 30 dismantled Mig-21's. If they could produce the aircraft locally, or even substantial spares such as engines, I doubt they'd be scraping around for replacements from former Pact countries.

Asia Times: The high price of Kazakhstan's MiG affair


No idea how solid the site is but I did find this:

Korean People's Army Air Force - North Korea

Seems to suggest that the air force is in poor shape with a very centralised command and control system, low air time for pilots and poor availability of fuel etc.

They seemed more impressed by the surface to air missiles and density of defence, although most are of valve technology levels (so I guess they count as hardened against EMP at least!)

Ian

 

[kato]

30 dismantled Mig-21's

Those were Mig-21bis (izd. 75A), 4th-generation MiG-21. Most of NK's other MiG-21 are old MiG-21F, the first generation from the early 60s. The MiG-21bis in comparison has different engines, a different radar, new armament options and is an all-weather aircraft. The old MiG-21F is a day fighter with low endurance, the MiG-21bis is a modern multi-role aircraft built to bridge the gap to the MiG-29 back then. The difference in particular in electronics is enormous.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

If you guys are interested, there is a 2009 version of the library of congress country study into NK which has a section on its defense industry.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/pdf/CS_North-Korea.pdf

Warning: It is a whopping 83.8mb.

 

[Feanor]

Those were Mig-21bis (izd. 75A), 4th-generation MiG-21. Most of NK's other MiG-21 are old MiG-21F, the first generation from the early 60s. The MiG-21bis in comparison has different engines, a different radar, new armament options and is an all-weather aircraft. The old MiG-21F is a day fighter with low endurance, the MiG-21bis is a modern multi-role aircraft built to bridge the gap to the MiG-29 back then. The difference in particular in electronics is enormous.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if they were getting them with an eye to reverse engineering some of the upgrades and working them into their own models.

 

[StobieWan]

Those were Mig-21bis (izd. 75A), 4th-generation MiG-21. Most of NK's other MiG-21 are old MiG-21F, the first generation from the early 60s. The MiG-21bis in comparison has different engines, a different radar, new armament options and is an all-weather aircraft. The old MiG-21F is a day fighter with low endurance, the MiG-21bis is a modern multi-role aircraft built to bridge the gap to the MiG-29 back then. The difference in particular in electronics is enormous.

It's an interesting point - that would at the very least give them an all weather capability of sorts. Given the crash rates the Indians are experiences with the '21, I wonder how many of them are still operational today? And I wonder, if as Feanor suggests, if any of the changes filtered into the wider fleet?

That's an interesting report link by Weasel too - I'll have to have a solid look at it when I get a minute,

Ian

 

[godbody]

You be surprise what the N. Korean can do. It been along time since N. Korea bought new equipment. Like most countries in the world they have secret projects they doing also. Many countries do undercover deals we dont know about give example like Iran who can transfer knowledge to N. Korean under a secret deal or engines to them that's just an example. They could have gotten a third party to help them with the IADS. The system are running they just trying to find a major countries who would assist them more. The countries that are under the U.S. list of the so called axis of evil are working together secretly that common sense they have no choice who else with deal with them. The N. Korean are hurting because of the sauction on them. There are alot of secret deal going on this earth including the U.S. is doing some secret deal that we dont know about. That what the CIA is for they are not going to let the media know everything. N. Korean have some things that are secretive There IADS are maintain the N.Korean are not dumb people they have techincal skills more than some countries like Saudi Arabia who trying get more citizen in the techincal field. This going out the subject if U.S. just leave Saudi Arabia what can they do without the U.S. help nothing there jets just be sitting there

 

[Feanor]

There is also a good chance that at least some SAM and aero-space tech more broadly was smuggled from the ex-USSR into the DPRK. It's more then likely that they're working on their own modifications, perhaps some minor upgrades, and it's possible that they worked that tech into their work.

 

[IronsightSniper]

Currently, the thing with the longest range in the NorKo arsenal is their Ego. Other than that, it's the SA-5, which has a 300 km range. Unfortunately, it's totally terrible, and the best thing a SA-5 can actually shoot down is an airliner (which it did). That is so because it has horrible maneuverbility, and a F-35 can out turn it.

Short range, I do believe they have Buk missile systems which poses the biggest threat. They also have a multitude of unguided Automatic Anti-Aircraft, but you can't effectively kill half the things the world's military flies with them. They also have a bunch of MANPADS, Strelas and Iglas.

There are however, claims that they do have S-300s, which will up their anty a lot. But, I have yet to see proof (although I have seen a video of what appears to be a S-300 in parade in NorKo, but a parade doesn't prove jack squat.)

Don't underestimate them though, that's how you get your Stealth fighters shot down.

 

[Feanor]

They don't have S-300. I'm fairly certain they don't have the Buk. They do have masses of older S-75 and S-125.

 

[Dropkick]

They don't have S-300. I'm fairly certain they don't have the Buk. They do have masses of older S-75 and S-125.

I agree too, and even if the DPRK did have such systems, they would be few in number and lacking effective support infrastructure.

As Feanor says, they have plenty of S-75 and S-125. Their few S-200 batteries are concentrated in the defence of the capital and key facilities like Yongbyon. Apart from this, they still rely very heavily still on AAA (most of which seemingly lack radar fire-control) and thus all-wheather capability.

Even more interesting is the KPA's lack of mobile SAM systems in defence of their maneuver units; even low-end Soviet-legacy systems like the SA-9 where never sought by Pyongyang. The KPA's mechanised forces are totally dependent on MANPADS systems like the SA-7/16.

In conclusion, if they really had confidence in their IADS, they would not feel such a pressing need to bury everything very deep underground. This is afterall the nation that even builds its airbase runways through the middle of mountains.

 

[StingrayOZ]

From what I can tell they seek superiority in numbers of fairly primative systems.

While the systems are way primative, they have the density to proberly be quiet effective if used on mass. Launching 1 or 2 missiles would be fairly ineffective, launching 100 proberly would be. It may only shot down <10 aircraft, but NK is going to take hundreds of sorties. And if your going in against NK defences, your proberly going to do it hard, with lots of aircraft.

Everything else is bunkered to a pretty solid level, atleast to a level you would need to use a large bomb to hit a relatively small target and everyone knows what they have to do if coms are cut.

NK seems to be quiet good at gathering technologies and building them. They are proberly funds limited, but they are funds limited because they have pumped nearly every $ into nukes, bunkers, missiles, arty etc.

 

[Feanor]

They're highly susceptible to jamming. Also issues with detection at low altitude (cruise missiles). Overall their IADS wouldn't be able to keep RoKAF from striking ground targets effectively. Thought I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply too difficult to properly suppress the whole thing, and it was mostly captured by advancing ground troops, rather then destroyed from the air.

 

[STURM]

From what I can tell they seek superiority in numbers of fairly primative systems.

Though most of their early warning and tracking facilities for their GBAD would be knocked out in the early stages or would be rendered useless through jamming, I'm sure the hundreds of AA guns [even without local radar direction] and older generation MANPADS would make things a bit tricky for ROKAF and U.S. aircraft operating at low level. At some point in these recent years, I would be surprised if the North Koreans hadn't made an attempt to obtain GPS jammers, though I'm not sure how effective these really are. Do we know from open sources when was the last time the North Koreans actually received shipments of MANPADS or medium range missiles?

Would be interesting to find out if any of the tactics used by the Serbs during the Kosovo conflict such using radar decoys, deception, concealment, etc, would have reached the North Koreans via 3rd countries. Then again i'm sure the North Koreans through open sources would have been keeping close track on events in Kosovo. Has anyone read 'COBRA 2' by Micheal R. Gordon? It has an interesting chapter on how the Iraqi independent mobile AA teams armed with both MANPADS and AA guns, located near the army's Air Defence school, were able to use the terrain, cell phones, etc, to their advantages in dealing with an Apache helicopter strike. As a signal to for AA teams to open fire the Iraqis resorted to switching off and then on, the town electric supply. Ultimately off course it made no difference to the end result but I find the tactics very interesting and I think they offer important lessons in dealing with the threat posed by attack helicopters.

 

[Mercurius]

I would be surprised if the North Koreans hadn't made an attempt to obtain GPS jammers, though I'm not sure how effective these really are.

A Burmese delegation that visited North Korea in November 2008 reported having been taken to a factory that manufactured (among other things) GP jammers.
But the operational effectiveness of such jammers in previous conflicts has been poor.

Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

 

[mk25]

I remember a military parade video of NK that shows NK has something that looks quite like the S-300, maybe an older version of the S-300PMU?

 

[T.C.P]

I remember a military parade video of NK that shows NK has something that looks quite like the S-300, maybe an older version of the S-300PMU?

It could be a HQ-9 Chinese reverse engineered S-300.