Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
His explanation is “We need Greenland for our national security, yes. We have to have it. We are going to have it one way or the other.”
Even if you choose to only quote Trump that's still not all he said.

This is a good video explaining the situation in a calmer way and adding many angles I haven't even thought of

If you want a summary:
  1. Greenland is autonomous and wants independence and can seek independence by Danish law.
  2. Greenland alone is incapable of securing its territory.
  3. Greenland is actively pursued by Russia and China.
  4. Russian and Chinese activity and militarism in the north are rising.
  5. We don't want an independent Greenland falling to Russian or Chinese influence.
  6. We are talking with Greenland on how to do everything.
  7. We do cleaner resource extraction.
I'm sure I'm missing a few points though.

 

swerve

Super Moderator
I don't follow American news much or at all but I thought they'd at least explained a couple times their interests in Greenland in the maritime security domain.
In one media session with Trump on Venezuela I remember them also asking about Greenland and him talking about that specifically.
The USA has an agreement with Denmark over bases in Greenland, which AFAIK still applies now that Greenland is internally self-governing. It's been in force for about 75 years, & replaced an earlier WW2 arrangement. The USA has chosen to give up all but one base, formerly called Thule Air Base but now Pituffik Space Base, but I think the agreement allows for it re-opening closed bases.

I think everything Trump says is needed for US national security is already covered by that agreement, but by his threats, Trump's scuppered it. Greenlanders aren't going to accept more US troops when the USA's talking about attacking Greenland. Trump's an idiot as well as an arsehole.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
The USA has an agreement with Denmark over bases in Greenland, which AFAIK still applies now that Greenland is internally self-governing. It's been in force for about 75 years, & replaced an earlier WW2 arrangement. The USA has chosen to give up all but one base, formerly called Thule Air Base but now Pituffik Space Base, but I think the agreement allows for it re-opening closed bases.

I think everything Trump says is needed for US national security is already covered by that agreement, but by his threats, Trump's scuppered it. Greenlanders aren't going to accept more US troops when the USA's talking about attacking Greenland. Trump's an idiot as well as an arsehole.
The agreement is with Denmark, not Greenland. But Greenland has a path to independence, and we can reasonably assume that Russia and China are very interested in Greenland. Its small population and vulnerability mean it can be very easily influenced or strong-armed, and the US has very good reason to try and pre-empt that.
Acquiring it now and solidifying presence and control can prevent a kinetic action if Russia or China beat the US to it.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I don't think they're genuinely presented as threats. The two sides are obviously talking. What negotiations didn't have a spicy public aspect?
And they're not stupid. The US's interest in Greenland predates the P-8 request. Denmark speaks the new American language and they're arming up. They probably view their and America's interests as aligned, but the truth is that securing the North Sea and Greenland among its other commitments is probably out of its depth.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US and Denmark agree on some mixed ownership model, allowing the US exclusive military rights and perhaps some economic ones, and Denmark governing all matters civil.
Denmark can't govern "all matters civil". It's GREENLAND, for fuck's sake, not Denmark. Greenland isn't a possession, that Denmark can give away, or a "colony", as some White House arsehole said the other day, it's a self-governing nation within the Danish kingdom. GREENLAND OWNS GREENLAND. And GREENLAND governs "matters civil" in Greenland.

The USA & Denmark (the bigger thing, including Greenland & the Faeroes, not the bit between Sweden & Germany) already have an agreement on the defence of Greenland, in addition to NATO, & have done since WW2. The current one dates from 1951. The USA used to have several bases in Greenland, but has chosen to withdraw from all but one. If the USA had made an approach through the usual channels, & said it was interested in re-opening some old bases, everything could have been sorted out in a friendly manner, but instead, Trump & his sycophants have done their best to turn a very good friend into an enemy, & made threats which have already resulted in other friends looking elsewhere for, for example, weapons. Trump's a great salesman for European & S. Korean arms producers.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The agreement is with Denmark, not Greenland. But Greenland has a path to independence, and we can reasonably assume that Russia and China are very interested in Greenland. Its small population and vulnerability mean it can be very easily influenced or strong-armed, and the US has very good reason to try and pre-empt that.
Acquiring it now and solidifying presence and control can prevent a kinetic action if Russia or China beat the US to it.
"Denmark" means two things. One is the territory between Sweden & Germany. The other is the Danish kingdom. The latter includes Greenland, but Greenland governs itself internally, & the part between Sweden & Germany, & Greenland, are not necessarily covered by the same international agreements, e.g. Greenland is not in the EU - because it chooses not to be.

And the US "pre-empted" any strong-arming of Greenland long before you were born, & even Donald Trump was born, by its military agreements with Denmark (the whole thing, including Greenland). The USA currently has a military base in Greenland & an agreement which allows, if everyone agrees, reopening some former ones which it chose to close down. But Greenland has a say, according to the constitution of the Danish kingdom (of which Greenland is one of three constituent parts). The rest of the kingdom has a limited ability to impose anything on Greenland.

Somehow, the White House (& not just the orange lardarse) seems to be unaware of any of that.

Where did the idea that you be nice to your friends go? Sun & North Wind, anyone?
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Denmark can't govern "all matters civil". It's GREENLAND, for fuck's sake, not Denmark. Greenland isn't a possession, that Denmark can give away, or a "colony", as some White House arsehole said the other day, it's a self-governing nation within the Danish kingdom. GREENLAND OWNS GREENLAND. And GREENLAND governs "matters civil" in Greenland.
Great. Problem solved.

The USA & Denmark (the bigger thing, including Greenland & the Faeroes, not the bit between Sweden & Germany) already have an agreement on the defence of Greenland, in addition to NATO, & have done since WW2. The current one dates from 1951. The USA used to have several bases in Greenland, but has chosen to withdraw from all but one. If the USA had made an approach through the usual channels, & said it was interested in re-opening some old bases, everything could have been sorted out in a friendly manner, but instead, Trump & his sycophants have done their best to turn a very good friend into an enemy, & made threats which have already resulted in other friends looking elsewhere for, for example, weapons. Trump's a great salesman for European & S. Korean arms producers.
Which kinda misses the point. Europe rightfully made American policymakers very skeptical of Europe's willingness and ability to take part in any security arrangement.
Paper isn't what they're looking for. Metal and concrete is.
Denmark and NATO can promise whatever they want, but if and when Greenland gains independence, it'll be hunting season for China and Russia and no agreement will save it.
There are many NATO members who are utterly compromised but just being in NATO doesn't save them.

Trump and his administration have actually been pretty calm about the whole matter. Most of the damaging rhetoric I've heard from lower level politicians who want in on the action and think they'll score points with the pax americana center-right crowd, but there's also no real way to rein them in. It's a democracy, not a dictatorship.

If you think the administration should be more active on getting congressmen to step off, then sure. But I'm disinterested in petty local politics. I'm here for the geopolitics.

"Denmark" means two things. One is the territory between Sweden & Germany. The other is the Danish kingdom. The latter includes Greenland, but Greenland governs itself internally, & the part between Sweden & Germany, & Greenland, are not necessarily covered by the same international agreements, e.g. Greenland is not in the EU - because it chooses not to be.

And the US "pre-empted" any strong-arming of Greenland long before you were born, & even Donald Trump was born, by its military agreements with Denmark (the whole thing, including Greenland). The USA currently has a military base in Greenland & an agreement which allows, if everyone agrees, reopening some former ones which it chose to close down. But Greenland has a say, according to the constitution of the Danish kingdom (of which Greenland is one of three constituent parts). The rest of the kingdom has a limited ability to impose anything on Greenland.

Somehow, the White House (& not just the orange lardarse) seems to be unaware of any of that.

Where did the idea that you be nice to your friends go? Sun & North Wind, anyone?
Maybe you are just unaware that they're already seeing this as a matter between Greenland and USA and less about Denmark and USA.

Because being independent kinda means they can actually decide to be neutral and let everyone - USA, Russia, and China - all build military bases in Greenland, or some other beneficial but more covert infrastructure, and if that happens then the avoidable kinetic part becomes much less avoidable.

How can we demand the US to be less aggressive looking south but also set it on a war path looking north?
 

rsemmes

Active Member
we can reasonably assume that Russia and China are very interested in Greenland. Its small population and vulnerability mean it can be very easily influenced or strong-armed, and the US has very good reason to try and pre-empt that.
Yes, so interested that they have been talking about taking it, one way or another, for the last 20 years. Yes, very easily strong-armed by US. Maybe Russia should preempt that? NATO doesn't seem that eager to defend NATO.
Anyway, I thought this was about Venezuela not about "preempting"; also known as illegal invasions.

Edit
Now that we already are off topic...
Shouldn't Canada, France or China preempt that or whatever they want? I don't know if we have S. Miller in this forum, “We live in a world, in the real world … that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power", but he didn't say that it has to be US power.
Maybe, in your opinion, that's the only one that counts?
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Yes, so interested that they have been talking about taking it, one way or another, for the last 20 years. Yes, very easily strong-armed by US. Maybe Russia should preempt that? NATO doesn't seem that eager to defend NATO.
Anyway, I thought this was about Venezuela not about "preempting"; also known as illegal invasions.
1. So what if an invasion is illegal?
2. Why are you being offended and acting defensive about geopolitics? Do national interests offend you? Does acknowledging they exist offend you?
If you like Russia so much, maybe instead of being defensive about it you can talk about the Russian angle in these geopolitics. That'd be a welcome topic for debate.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
1. So what if an invasion is illegal?
2. Why are you being offended and acting defensive about geopolitics? Do national interests offend you? Does acknowledging they exist offend you?
If you like Russia so much, maybe instead of being defensive about it you can talk about the Russian angle in these geopolitics. That'd be a welcome topic for debate.
I have been posting about "interests" for a while, more than a few "high horses" are (seem to be) offended by its mention; I am disgusted by the hypocrisy, not by the interests, there is nothing else.

What if it is illegal?
Well, that is an interesting... Something. Maybe we do have S. Miller here. (We live in a world, in the real world … that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power.)
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
I have been posting about "interests" for a while, more than a few "high horses" are (seem to be) offended by its mention; I am disgusted by the hypocrisy, not by the interests, there is nothing else.
Alright I'm listening. What hypocrisy are you referring to?
And more importantly, do you really think hypocrisy plays any role in geopolitics aside from just PR?

What if it is illegal?
Well, that is an interesting... Something. Maybe we do have S. Miller here. (We live in a world, in the real world … that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power.)
Admittedly, I do not know who Samantha is.
But something very basic I know about law is that if you break a law, someone has to enforce it.
And if country A is being invaded by country B, then the enforcer is country A. It enforces by repelling the invasion.
But even if the invasion is "legal" then country A would still try to repel it.
So in practice, there is absolutely no consequence to an invasion being legal or illegal.
It's just semantics. Ones we simply invent to categorize those we like and those we don't like.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
1. Because the security tasks at hand are beyond Denmark's existing and near future capabilities, or even economic feasibility of creating. It is a vast ocean requiring a vast and modern naval and air fleet. Regional countries do not have enough capability to compensate, and European NATO tendency to fall back on US assets and capabilities to plug many different and vital gaps in ISR, EW and so on.
Denmark must allocate resources to the North Sea and Baltic Sea among other areas.
As has been commented by others, this problem is solvable with allies. Security in the north Atlantic area isn't just a Denmark concern, it's a concern for a number of countries and one obvious solution is to form a defensive alliance around some sort of treaty. Maybe even a organization... :rolleyes:

The problem is that the US isn't treating Denmark like an ally, but rather like a satellite state. There is a fundamental difference in kind here. That's the concern.

2. Of course. The US manufactures a lot of things that other niche suppliers like South Korea and Israel cannot fulfill. Particularly aircraft, which obviously are a very central aspect of the modern fighting force.
The world isn't made up of the US, RoK, and Israel. There are many other manufacturers. If there is a reason to move away from depending on the US, there is a market large enough within European NATO to support an alternative.

3. Still yes. Even if we consider the US "very scary" it should not be an obstacle to a healthy defense trade between Denmark and the USA.
The USA emerges as Europe's most essential and desired arms supplier in this high demand period, and it's very conducive to European rearmament efforts.
You can have a healthy defense trade but still move towards minimizing dependence. The real problem is, if the US decides to use force to seize Greenland, will a US dependence compromise the ability of Denmark to resist this?

How can you tell? Because for any country outside NATO looking into Greenland, they'd see a mixed ownership model already, with American basing in Greenland.
This is really dishonest and untrue. A simple example is Crimea with Russian bases pre-'14 and annexed Crimea post-'14. There is a huge difference between Greenland being part of the US or part of Denmark with US military bases. There are US military bases in South Korea. Is "ownership" of South Korea "mixed"? Most would say obviously not, though I'm sure you could twist some strange definition into being. And let's not forget the fundamental problem, the USA isn't asking for a bigger presence in Greenland. It's Trump trying to first buy Greenland and then threatening to take it by force. Without or without the support of the local population, and certainly without much regard for the sovereignty of another allegedly allied nation-state.

That's why Denmark should have been building leverage a long time ago. But it didn't, and it missed its shot. But if it negotiates with the US, it could still get a very favorable outcome. Which practically could be very similar to what already exists.
If Denmark and the USA are allies, then it's ridiculous to expect Denmark to have to negotiate with the USA about getting to keep their own territory. This simply isn't how allies behave. Hence the concern.

I still don't know exactly what the US wants to achieve. Maybe all they're looking for is the autonomy to build military infrastructure on whichever part of the territory they want.
What the US wants to achieve and what Trump wants to achieve may be two different things. That having been said, everything so far indicates they want to take Greenland and make it part of the USA by hook or by crook.

Because of Greenland, or because the USA has been shouting from the rooftop to Europe that it's refocusing on China and they need to start being more independent?
Why not both? But I think there is a distinction here to be made. If you need to be more independent because the US no longer has the resources to subsidize your security, you might buy your own P-8s for maritime patrol, instead of depending on the US. But if you no longer trust the US because they threaten the territorial integrity of an ally for cynical geopolitical aims, then you don't buy P-8s at all, but instead look at alternatives.

Because I can't take this "colonialism imperialism" argument seriously when its most vocal European proponent is the country whose longest border is with Brazil.
You can't take an argument I'm making seriously, because some other entity is also making that argument and may be disingenuous? This strikes me as sophistry, a convenient excuse to disregard what you don't like or don't want to face up to.
 

SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
I think many of you need a refresh on European overseas territories and regions...



Also, since u were talking about it... Guyane is part of the European Union just like Normandy or Catalunya. It is part of metropolitan France (as an oversea department) and by so is fully sovereign european union territory. Official currency is Euro and guyanese people are EU citizens. It's not a "colony"... but actually sovereign french territory.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Admittedly, I do not know who Samantha is.
But something very basic I know about law is that if you break a law, someone has to enforce it.
And if country A is being invaded by country B, then the enforcer is country A. It enforces by repelling the invasion.
But even if the invasion is "legal" then country A would still try to repel it.
So in practice, there is absolutely no consequence to an invasion being legal or illegal.
It's just semantics. Ones we simply invent to categorize those we like and those we don't like.
I've always felt this was your belief, but you've always tried to argue that your position was supported by international law. Thank you for coming out openly. Let's be clear, this is a fundamental disagreement of values, and I won't argue beyond that point because it's counter-productive. But most people at least that I've seen believe that international relations should be governed by a set of rules that even nation-states abide by. And in principle the strongest laws are the ones that people follow because they respect the law and agree with it, not because there's a stick ready to fall on their heads. However in principle, the enforcement of laws should be coming from some sort of international or multi-national effort. The Korean War comes to mind as a good example of this. One of the problems is that international law has been flouted openly by super powers and those aspiring to the status, with impunity, and the same international or multi-national entities that will go after some states for flouting it, will do little more then whine (if even that).

So in principle, I would agree that we don't actually have a good system of international law, and in practice it often is much the case that it's a way to categorize those whose actions we don't like. But it doesn't mean shouldn't have such a system, and it doesn't mean it's merely semantics. Categorizing and understanding behavior and how it relates to expectations and desirable behavior is relevant, even if we can't directly punish someone for engaging in it. A simple logical question might be why a country would voluntarily choose to limit it's policy options by some unenforced constraints from international law. The answer is that if the country is a democracy whose leadership is reasonably faithfully executing the mandate of it's people then they may want their country to abide by said law. If a country is authoritarian, it may want to follow international law because it wants to trade and be accepted as at least somewhat legitimate by the rest of the world. And thus it makes a lot of sense to consider whether a given country follows international law or not and thus make your own policy choices towards them accordingly not only in response to the individual action, but to the nature of their behavior more broadly. Theoretically someone might not care if the US gets Greenland or not, but they might care that the US is willing to behave with disregard for international law because it means they can't rely on the US to behave in a certain way towards them in future cases. And vice-versa, Russia might be an authoritarian oligarchy but if* they generally abide by international law and leave their neighbors alone, you can do business with them and potentially even develop a level of trust despite their government.

*This is a hypothetical that obviously isn't actually the case in our world.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
a convenient excuse to disregard what you don't like or don't want to face up to.
In this forum? That is hard to believe.

On the other hand, a strange ally when it's trying to strangle or undermine your economy. Isn't that what you do to your enemies?
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
As has been commented by others, this problem is solvable with allies. Security in the north Atlantic area isn't just a Denmark concern, it's a concern for a number of countries and one obvious solution is to form a defensive alliance around some sort of treaty. Maybe even a organization... :rolleyes:
The reliance on allies is actually the central issue here. It is exactly the notion that European allies lack both will and capability, that drives the US to secure its interests independently.
The entire US security policy regarding Europe is driven by frustration with Europe over their systemic security neglect.

The problem is that the US isn't treating Denmark like an ally, but rather like a satellite state. There is a fundamental difference in kind here. That's the concern.
If you have a strategic interest but all your ally can offer is thoughts and prayers, what do you do?
Well actually if it's not an ally you can just take it by force or will no consideration for them. If it's an ally you can make very good offers like economic or industrial or security incentives.

The world isn't made up of the US, RoK, and Israel. There are many other manufacturers. If there is a reason to move away from depending on the US, there is a market large enough within European NATO to support an alternative.
SK and Israel were listed as non-European suppliers. Internal European MIC is not yet sufficient to fulfill most nations' security demands so outside sources are required.

You can have a healthy defense trade but still move towards minimizing dependence. The real problem is, if the US decides to use force to seize Greenland, will a US dependence compromise the ability of Denmark to resist this?
That is very hypothetical. I do not think Denmark would be well served cutting itself off American arms. I think that would be a major strategic mistake. And by no means would Denmark have any way to resist it if it was really a forceful takeover. So I don't think dependence would even be part of that calculus.
Most realistic outcome is to suck it up.

This is really dishonest and untrue. A simple example is Crimea with Russian bases pre-'14 and annexed Crimea post-'14. There is a huge difference between Greenland being part of the US or part of Denmark with US military bases. There are US military bases in South Korea. Is "ownership" of South Korea "mixed"? Most would say obviously not, though I'm sure you could twist some strange definition into being. And let's not forget the fundamental problem, the USA isn't asking for a bigger presence in Greenland. It's Trump trying to first buy Greenland and then threatening to take it by force. Without or without the support of the local population, and certainly without much regard for the sovereignty of another allegedly allied nation-state.
I'm not making any definitions. I'm saying things in ways I think will be better understood. But I am against hard definitions. I think it's most important to understand some abstract principles here, like assurances.
If the US really had no regard for the sovereignty and friendship of its allies, there'd be no negotiations. Just an instant takeover and that's it.

Consider this realistic scenario:
The US wants to expand facilities in Greenland ahead of an anticipated scenario. It notifies Denmark as per agreement. But this time Denmark objects. Like those around it, foreign influence made it hostile.
Waiting for a new gov't will take too long and time is of the essence. What do?

If Denmark and the USA are allies, then it's ridiculous to expect Denmark to have to negotiate with the USA about getting to keep their own territory. This simply isn't how allies behave. Hence the concern.
Allies do not negotiate? What do allies do then? Start shooting one another?

You can't take an argument I'm making seriously, because some other entity is also making that argument and may be disingenuous? This strikes me as sophistry, a convenient excuse to disregard what you don't like or don't want to face up to.
You made a "colonialism imperialism" argument?

I've always felt this was your belief, but you've always tried to argue that your position was supported by international law. Thank you for coming out openly.
My full system of beliefs on international laws and norms and geopolitics is much better described by "peace through strength", or a careful balance of "might makes right" with international norms.
There must be norms derived from enlightened values, but these norms must be enforced, by military if necessary.
And if these norms become dated to the point they're turned against us by their opponents, then it is time to reform them and start enforcing.
None of them is actually derived from words existing on paper and nations enslaved by these words.

This guy here actually describes my view on this quite well:

A simple logical question might be why a country would voluntarily choose to limit it's policy options by some unenforced constraints from international law. The answer is that if the country is a democracy whose leadership is reasonably faithfully executing the mandate of it's people then they may want their country to abide by said law.
It is usually more closely tied to a sense of morality. There was a lot of whinyism regarding Israel-Gaza when people were claiming Israel violated some international laws and that it was genociding or whatever. And that is just a perversion of the causality. Israeli soldiers didn't shoot random Palestinian civilians not because of some sense of respect for international law. But because you can't really convince one to do it. But if you somehow land on someone you can convince, then he's looking at several years in prison because of local law.

Right now the world is still somewhat unipolar. The US is the dominant superpower. If it becomes bipolar or multipolar, with China and others becoming superpowers, then we can expect the "international law" to splinter because there will be more enforcers but with radically different world views and what is considered acceptable.

The Swords of Iron war started on Oct 7th, involving 7 fronts spanning much of the middle east, embodied the acceptable norms of Iran, its proxies, and other regional terrorist groups. They account for a vast region on this earth. They have their own norms separate from our own. For all purposes, "our" international laws have absolutely no bearing on them. But they actually started increasingly complying with our international laws simply because of a multinational effort to vaporize them.

And vice-versa, Russia might be an authoritarian oligarchy but if* they generally abide by international law and leave their neighbors alone, you can do business with them and potentially even develop a level of trust despite their government.

*This is a hypothetical that obviously isn't actually the case in our world.
When the war ends, given a bit of time, trade will be restored. That's not international law. That's just how the market works. If your stuff is as good but cheaper, people will buy your stuff. And Russia has stuff.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
When Greenland’s resource treasures are either exhausted or proven to be massively inflated, how much kit will be abandoned and how fast will the US run away?
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
When Greenland’s resource treasures are either exhausted or proven to be massively inflated, how much kit will be abandoned and how fast will the US run away?
I don't think I've heard any mention of resources beyond rare earth minerals, which honestly are very abundant and anyone can extract and process at home.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The reliance on allies is actually the central issue here. It is exactly the notion that European allies lack both will and capability, that drives the US to secure its interests independently.
The entire US security policy regarding Europe is driven by frustration with Europe over their systemic security neglect.
It's driven also by the need to balance other priorities with still having a stake in the security of Europe, as a major trading partner. Frustration is real, but it's not the only driver. Also there is the issue that objectively the strategic interests of many European actors and of the USA have diverged over the past ~30 years. The end of the Cold War had a lot to do with that.

If you have a strategic interest but all your ally can offer is thoughts and prayers, what do you do?
Well actually if it's not an ally you can just take it by force or will no consideration for them. If it's an ally you can make very good offers like economic or industrial or security incentives.
The idea that you can take whatever you want by force from anyone who isn't your ally is another point where we fundamentally disagree on the level of value judgements. On the practical side, taking things by force often comes with consequences, sometimes unintended, sometimes unforseeable even in theory. There are risks there. If you have a strategic interest, you should pursue it within the bounds set by international law. If you can't do something lawfully, this doesn't justify breaking the law. It means you don't get to do it.

SK and Israel were listed as non-European suppliers. Internal European MIC is not yet sufficient to fulfill most nations' security demands so outside sources are required.
Circular discussion. If European NATO members were to move away from US dependence in key areas they would find producers to fill the niche. RoK and Israel but also possibly Japan, Turkey, India, Singapore, whoever else. It would take time but it can be done. The European market, especially with re-armament, is large enough to support a supply of even things as relatively complex and exotic as modern MPA.

That is very hypothetical. I do not think Denmark would be well served cutting itself off American arms. I think that would be a major strategic mistake. And by no means would Denmark have any way to resist it if it was really a forceful takeover. So I don't think dependence would even be part of that calculus.
Most realistic outcome is to suck it up.
It's not a one and done deal. The question isn't only what to do here and now but what lessons to take away. Today the USA decides Greenland is a strategic interest and they're taking it. Tomorrow it could be Iceland. And the next month parts of Norway. You might say this is implausible, but before Trump, the idea that the USA would take Greenland away by force was implausible. And yet here we are. Hence the question of how wise it is to continue to depend on the US for critical and sophisticated platforms like the P-8 that certainly wouldn't stay operational for long without US support, and likely couldn't be credibly turned against the US.

I'm not making any definitions. I'm saying things in ways I think will be better understood. But I am against hard definitions. I think it's most important to understand some abstract principles here, like assurances.
If the US really had no regard for the sovereignty and friendship of its allies, there'd be no negotiations. Just an instant takeover and that's it.
There are reasons to negotiate beyond just the respect for sovereignty. It's not just done out of friendship.

Consider this realistic scenario:
The US wants to expand facilities in Greenland ahead of an anticipated scenario. It notifies Denmark as per agreement. But this time Denmark objects. Like those around it, foreign influence made it hostile.
Waiting for a new gov't will take too long and time is of the essence. What do?
Well... you could respect your allies sovereignty and accept their decision. Or you could launch a "special military operation". Which way you go says a lot about what kind of actor you are.

Allies do not negotiate? What do allies do then? Start shooting one another?
Another great example of sophistry. I trust you understand my point and will disregard this nonsense.

You made a "colonialism imperialism" argument?
It's an argument that's been made by many. You said you can't take it seriously because of a certain country. Again I think you understand my point and are jumping on words. As a certain large vegetable said recently "It's just semantics".

My full system of beliefs on international laws and norms and geopolitics is much better described by "peace through strength", or a careful balance of "might makes right" with international norms.
There must be norms derived from enlightened values, but these norms must be enforced, by military if necessary.
And if these norms become dated to the point they're turned against us by their opponents, then it is time to reform them and start enforcing.
None of them is actually derived from words existing on paper and nations enslaved by these words.
That by definition is not a system of rules. If it's "rules are good until they're not immediately good for us then we get to change them unilaterally" that it's not rules. It's a fig leaf of pretend legality to do whatever you choose. Which fits neatly with what you wrote above. If norms have been turned against you, it's time to consider your behavior and why these norms now don't give you the outcome you want. What you've described is might makes right with a cardboard cutout in front of it.

When the war ends, given a bit of time, trade will be restored. That's not international law. That's just how the market works. If your stuff is as good but cheaper, people will buy your stuff. And Russia has stuff.
Assuming there is still a single global market left. Personally I'm not so sure. I suspect Europe will be wary of buying Russian resources for a long time to come. But it's a tangent and I don't want to get into it.
 
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