Minimum fly height over Civvie areas?

Jissy

New Member
Just wondering,
a week ago a heavy lift aircraft came zooming overhead my house, VERY LOW, so low and loud I ran out front to see what was going on, and saw it was military, a Caribou or maybe a new type of Hercules? (? any of those have jet engines?) and watched it curving right as it rapidly descended, disappearing over the ridge... I did wait to hear an explosion, and rang the local cops (who denied hearing it and were completely disinterested..."if it crashes we will hear about it.."), and was told it was probably heading into the Richmond Base.

Fine...but... I have lived here for three years now, this was the first time such an event has happened, and it left me wondering what the official height over civilian housing was, particularly since I am not in a normal flight path.

Lastly, if it was an exercise, should not the local authorities have warned the civilians about it?

Anyone know?
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I don't know what the height is in Australia, but in the USA I have seen USAF fighters and bombers fly as low as 100 feet above the ground. The idea is to fly below radar's earth curvature.
 

south

Well-Known Member
1000ft over civil area

They try to avoid built up area's as much as they can.

If it happens once every 3 years, you can probably live with it...
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Local cops are not very helpful..

I remember one night a helicopter basically landed in my front yard and back yard (at 11:30 pm) and drove up the street less than 1 m from the ground. With a search light on. For about 20 mins.

I went to the local police station and they told me in order:

+That I didn't see anything! (first guy)
+There was no helicopter there (2nd guy)
+A bit later they said there was a helicopter looking for kids. (guy who came out after two cops started accusing me of lying)..

I asked what kids. What were they doing (hey I live here), and they said "nothing"...

Kind of a x-files moment..
 

Jissy

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thanks

Local cops are not very helpful..

I remember one night a helicopter basically landed in my front yard and back yard (at 11:30 pm) and drove up the street less than 1 m from the ground. With a search light on. For about 20 mins.

I went to the local police station and they told me in order:

+That I didn't see anything! (first guy)
+There was no helicopter there (2nd guy)
+A bit later they said there was a helicopter looking for kids. (guy who came out after two cops started accusing me of lying)..

I asked what kids. What were they doing (hey I live here), and they said "nothing"...

Kind of a x-files moment..
Thanks for the replies gents, interesting no one in the military here has responded... maybe they just didn't see the post?

However, even if this only happens once in three years, it is still unacceptable, as ity is illegal.

As for the cops, yes they turn all eyes blind when it comes to Gov. stuff ups etc. except when it affects them.

Anyhoo, what general area do you live in Stingray, not in the Blue Mts by any chance, or near Richmond?

Just wondering, as lots of oddities happen up my way.

cheers

jissy
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Nah I was living at urban castle Hill when this happend. I think it had to do something with the house at the end of the street who had two boys in the force..

I now live at lowerportland on acres about 30 mins from richmond, we some some aircraft doing funny things, but its all good.

At richmond C-17's or C5's or what not at <100ft is a half hourly occurance.. Goto the royal at richmond for dinner one time..
 

Jissy

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Nah I was living at urban castle Hill when this happend. I think it had to do something with the house at the end of the street who had two boys in the force..

I now live at lowerportland on acres about 30 mins from richmond, we some some aircraft doing funny things, but its all good.

At richmond C-17's or C5's or what not at <100ft is a half hourly occurance.. Goto the royal at richmond for dinner one time..
haha! Sounds like fun at the Royal!!

By the way, since you live in that area, have you ever seen an "experimental" (for want of another euphanism) craft, very very large, perfect mirror finish, delta shape, except it comes to a fine point at the pilot end, and no windows?
oh, and silent... no exothermic thrust was visible or audible...

It was heading in general direction of Richmond, this back about a year or so...

cheers

jissy
 

Gremlin29

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Verified Defense Pro
Not sure how it works in Oz, in the US military aircraft are exempt from FAA regulations but, and it is a huge but, we still adhere to FAA regs unless operating in MOA's etc. Most countries belong to ICAO so the regs are pretty much the same everywhere.

Minimum altitudes are: Over congested areas mininimum altitude of no less than 1,000 above highest obstacle within 2,000 feet laterally. Over other area's it's 500 feet vertical and lateral from any structure, person vehicle etc. You also need to be at an altitude that will allow you to make a an emergency landing in the event of power failure, without putting undue risk to those on the ground. All of this is nul and void for emergencies, or for take offs and landings. Helicopters are exempt from these requirements as long as they do not create an undue hazard.

Again not sure how things are done down there but generally speaking, the military doesn't contact anyone about what they are doing for many reasons most of which, have to do with the fact that the information wouldn't do anyone any good and probably create more problems than it would solve. Plus, the police can't do anything about it anyway and aren't in the information business.

Chances are pretty good, your house isn't on any aeronautical chart so they don't know they are flying over your house anyway. I mean no disrespect but what would you have done differently that day if you knew a jet was going to buzz your house?
 

Jissy

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Hi Gremlin29

Not sure how it works in Oz, in the US military aircraft are exempt from FAA regulations but, and it is a huge but, we still adhere to FAA regs unless operating in MOA's etc. Most countries belong to ICAO so the regs are pretty much the same everywhere.

Minimum altitudes are: Over congested areas mininimum altitude of no less than 1,000 above highest obstacle within 2,000 feet laterally. Over other area's it's 500 feet vertical and lateral from any structure, person vehicle etc. You also need to be at an altitude that will allow you to make a an emergency landing in the event of power failure, without putting undue risk to those on the ground. All of this is nul and void for emergencies, or for take offs and landings. Helicopters are exempt from these requirements as long as they do not create an undue hazard.

Again not sure how things are done down there but generally speaking, the military doesn't contact anyone about what they are doing for many reasons most of which, have to do with the fact that the information wouldn't do anyone any good and probably create more problems than it would solve. Plus, the police can't do anything about it anyway and aren't in the information business.

Chances are pretty good, your house isn't on any aeronautical chart so they don't know they are flying over your house anyway. I mean no disrespect but what would you have done differently that day if you knew a jet was going to buzz your house?
Thanks for taking the time to put me into the picture, no offense taken of course, but, I live in a large tourist township, not an isolated property in the "outback", so I was just trying to clarify how they could justify such an incredibly low altitude, unless of course the plane was in trouble and had to make a quick descent.

My township is well and truly on the map, and on top of the mountain, so it is hard to miss.

Anyway,
thanks again,

cheers

jissy
 

Gremlin29

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Jissy, I'm sure my post reads more flipant than I intend for it to sound. I wasn't suggesting you lived in the middle of nowhere, just pointing out that houses aren't depicted on aeronautical charts and towns/cities are only depicted as an outline of how it appears at night.

The charts used for instrument flight (which is the mode of flight most large aircraft are operating under) don't even show cities/towns or other landmarks and only give a very very general outline of the ground only to visualize whether or not your over land or water. Here's a link that shows a couple of pics of the charts used for instrument flight, to give you an idea of what the pilot has to work from and how little info on what's below is presented.

http://avn.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/catalog/charts/ifr/enrt_low

If your interested, the basic paper type maps pilots are using are Aeronautical Charts (used for visual flight rules ie not using instrument navigation) Enroute Low Altitiude charts (ELA) Approach Plates (for instrument landings, these are specific to an airport and often multiple plates exist for multiple runways at the same airport) and finally the old 1:25,000 grid map.
 

Jissy

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Thanks for that Gremlin29,

I checked out the map reference too, very interesting...and no wonder I didn't try to become a pilot...sheesh! All those lines and information dotted about, it does make one wonder that there are not more accidents than there already is!

This Caribou or Hercules, (still not sure which), disturbed me more as it was descending so fast and at such an angle, I literally waited to hear the boom crash as it disappeared over the ridge, however, apparently all was well...no smoke rising up!

cheers

jissy
 

Gremlin29

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They may have been practicing tactical/short field approaches and landing on the sod. I've seen C130's do this and it is amazing such a big plane can land in such a short distance. They nose over very steeply and pull out very close to the ground, sounds alot like what your describing. Here's a You Tube clip of what this looks like:

[ame]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iIUJAXwjEk&feature=related[/ame]
 

Jissy

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HOLY MOLY!!!
Gremlin29...that was IMPRESSIVE!!
What distance can it stop in?
It seems to stop in 100 feet or less, but the first part of its touchdown is obscured, however, what really gets me wondering (and showing you just how LITTLE I know about aeroplanes and such, even though I love them!) is, it apears to be a prop plane, so how does it stop so fast?

Is it just tires and breaks? Or does it get some of the props spinning in reverse somehow?

It must be some ride down, these pilots have both tremendous ability and 'intestinal fortitude!' hehe!

My dad served in the Middle East, and in Papua New Guinea, (WW2: he joined up when just turning 17, he lied about his age, as so many did back then) and in between the two theatres, (Mid East first), he flew enough time to get his wings, trained on Tiger Moths, but the Australian Armed Forces wouldn't give him his wings, (too lousy to fork out another few pounds a week, the bastards), and I knew it was something he really regretted, not following his passion, to be a pilot.

Sad really, but, he ended up being a highly regarded exploration geologist, finding lots of minerals etc. He worked for American firms too, so we had a lot of American friends.

Anyway, thanks so much for posting that film, truly amazing aricraft and pilots!

Oh, and yes you must be right, about what I saw being a training run for short landing.

cheers

jissy
 

Gremlin29

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Not sure what the minimum rollout it is but it's short, for a big heavy airplane. The prop blades twist to provide pitch, they can "reverse" thrust which actually means the blades twist in the opposite direction they are in for forward flight so they get all thrust in front to to help stop, or backup for that matter. They also stand on the brakes. :) They've actually launched and recovered a C130 on an aircraft carrier back in the early 60's, when they were a still fairly new airplane. It worked but they take up too much space for practical purposes. The quality of this video is poor, but it's amazing footage none the less.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjNyQvhsQE8&feature=related"]YouTube - C-130 takes off and lands on a Carrier USS Forrestal[/ame]

The C17 is bigger and heavier but can really put the brakes on, here's a clip of a short landing and I might add, this is a standard maneuver for this aircraft practiced all the time.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNCULxst94c&feature=related"]YouTube - Assault landing at Airventure 2007[/ame]
 

Jissy

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Hi gremlin29,

thanks for those shots!

Amazing aircraft indeed!

cheers

jissy
 
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