Have you looked at the numbers of new tanks, 155mm SP guns & HIMARS they're planning to buy? Far more tanks & artillery than any other country west of the former Soviet border.96 AH-64Es.....thats an enormous amount.
In my opinion unrealistic. Even the largest economies of Europe have less than 70 combat helicopters in their fleets. With that amount, Poland will be the largest AH-64 user in the world outside the US.
Poland intends to acquire 96 AH-64E Apaches
Poland intends to acquire 96 AH-64E Apaches The Polish Minister of Defence, Mariusz Błaszczak, announced that Poland intends to acquire 96 new attack helicopters and the Boeing AH-...www.scramble.nl
Military Aviation News and Discussion
- Thread starter ngatimozart
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Considering their history with the neighbours, most Poles probably prefer too much kit as opposed to not enough. The consumption of military supplies and ammo in Ukraine is a wake up call for other nations to stock up while they can.
Terran
Well-Known Member
With Russia bear out of its cave and sharpening its claws, Western Europe is slowly starting to wake up and smell the Napalm in the morning. Spoiler alert they don’t think it smells like victory.96 AH-64Es.....thats an enormous amount.
In my opinion unrealistic. Even the largest economies of Europe have less than 70 combat helicopters in their fleets. With that amount, Poland will be the largest AH-64 user in the world outside the US.
Poland intends to acquire 96 AH-64E Apaches
Poland intends to acquire 96 AH-64E Apaches The Polish Minister of Defence, Mariusz Błaszczak, announced that Poland intends to acquire 96 new attack helicopters and the Boeing AH-...
Since the end of the Cold War the Western European states that made up the original NATO membership have more than anyone been dipping into the peace dividends. Germany on paper has an awesome army but it’s internally cannibalized it’s self to maintain a small fraction due to constant underinvestment In sustainment. The UK is arguably the second most powerful and professional force in NATO yet it’s MOD is constantly undercut and slashed often deferred necessary upgrades and programs in penny wise pound foolish make mend edicts from Whitehall. France has more interest in Africa and the Middle East operating with Paris similarly slashing or specializing equipment resulting in limited numbers. The rest of Western NATO again falls into more or less self defense forces pushing reliance on American forces. With the American Eagle squaring off against the Asian Red Dragon like the start of a Kaiju movie. Europe has to know that the US might not be able to throw down if a problem flares.
It should be remembered that like the country west of the line east of the line the majority haven’t made the huge military investments either. Though NATO states on paper with defense capabilities most have very small forces primarily infantry based with armored vehicles that are Soviet tank museum pieces. Others are basically armed police.
Ukraine has shown that the established “Arsenal of Democracy” isn’t has large as would be liked. Though a serious drain on Russian military forces Ukrainian victory is no money back guarantee that at the end of this Russia will be vanquished. Hell it’s not even guaranteed that Ukraine does win.
Given that fact, Poland is basically taking “Si vis pacem, para bellum” to heart. Stockpiling arms in case for a follow up, and taking the position of big Brother on the block. Ensuring that if in the future American and NATO forces were tied up elsewhere Moscow doesn’t get funny ideas and Europe’s eastern flank is covered.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
A recent article about the AW249. Apparently it will be marine capable. Unfortunately the Apache is a hard act to follow. Will be interesting to watch its progress.
theaviationist.com
New Photos Of The New AW249 Attack Helicopter Emerge As Test Campaign Progresses
A month after the first flight, the testing is progressing to expand the AW249's flight envelope. A month after its first flight, the new Leonardo AW249
theaviationist.com
Which is why 6 months ago the Germans voted 100 billion euros (almost two years of recent defence spending) for plugging the holes, in addition to increasing the regular military budget. Many billions are going on spare parts & munitions.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
We have to thank Putin for this, thanks to him European countries start to wake up and realize that decades of defence budget cuts and letting their armed forces almost bleed to death is just dumb. He opened their eyes and showed that a world without decent defence is a hippie-utopia.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #667
I would've have thought that they might've have gone with a 30mm cannon rather than the 20mm cannon. 20mm is very much out ranged today by ground vehicles using 25mm or 30mm guns.A recent article about the AW249. Apparently it will be marine capable. Unfortunately the Apache is a hard act to follow. Will be interesting to watch its progress.
New Photos Of The New AW249 Attack Helicopter Emerge As Test Campaign Progresses
A month after the first flight, the testing is progressing to expand the AW249's flight envelope. A month after its first flight, the new Leonardo AW249
Terran
Well-Known Member
The 30mm gun used by most fighting vehicles is not the same 30mm used by most aircraft.
the M230LF of Apache fires 30x113mm which has a max range of about 4km effective of 1.5km.
The Russian flavor of 30mm is 30x160mm 2km effective claimed 4km max.
The Bushmaster II fires the 30x173mm which has 3km effective and 5.1km max.
20x102mm which is just about NATO standard generally ranges 1.5 km effective to maxed to 4.5 km. Though the gun and mount will shift the numbers. So when compared range isn’t that far off. It’s mostly the HE and pressure where 20mm comes short. Yet those aspects aren’t as important in an attack chopper. Because the Chopper already packs lots of HE and armor busting power in the form of ATGMs. The gun is a secondary meant for soft targets like trucks, light skinned armor and squishy infantry.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #669
Yet the Apache and Tiger have the 30mm gun. I actually have a US video somewhere that shows that the 30mm shell has six times the destructive power of the 20mm shell. I will have to find it now because it was done for the USN.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
This was also the reason why the 2S6 Tunguska was developed, the 23 mm cannon of the ZSU-23-4 was simply not powerful enough.
And Oerlikon thought the same when they developed the GDF 35 mm....
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Terran
Well-Known Member
Destructiveness is is where HE and pressure come in. A sabot type round of course is subcaliber KE. Longer heavier higher pressure shells require a longer heavier gun which on an attack choppah cost on weight penalty. Again the Apache and variants of Tiger both use lighter 30mm caliber that trade off power vs the ones on an IFV. Farther Cobra/Viper, Comanche and Ruavok all use 20mm guns. It’s comes to what is the mission and Apache is used differently than Viper despite being in the same DOD.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
L3Harris is proposing an Embraer KC-390 tanker with a boom to the USAF. It could operate from marginal airfields in the Pacific and receive fuel from larger tankers. Could be just what Embraer needs to stimulate the marketing effort for their Herc plus alternative.
www.thedrive.com
KC-390 With A Boom Could Be The Agile Tanker The Air Force Needs
A modified version of the Brazilian KC-390 could bring fuel forward to austere airstrips and thirsty fighters on edge of enemy airspace.
www.thedrive.com
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) has unveiled a model of its proposed new military multirole cargo aircraft, which it is calling the MC-X and it looks like it is in the same class as the KC-390, and smaller than the C-2.
DX Korea 2022: KAI unveils MC-X transport aircraft proposal
Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) has unveiled a model of its proposed new military multirole cargo aircraft, which it is calling the MC-X.
www.janes.com
Terran
Well-Known Member
I hope the best for this. On paper atleast it’s almost the perfect replacement for C130. It has a higher payload, higher altitude, higher range. Yet can still fly almost as low and slow as C130J. KC390 as it exists today has the potential to be able to refuel 2 of the three F35 variants, all of the V22 variants as well as Slower rotary wing platforms like MH60 and in the future V280. Right now the USAF needs all the tankers it could get and pitched configuration even has a boom expanding the refueling envelope to F35A, F22, F16, F15E/X future B21, E7 and beyond. If the team could get the USAF to buy it is a foot in the door that could gateway drug the USAF into replacement or at the very least Augmentation of a significant portion of the Tanker, transport and SOF airlift fleets. It’s fast speed and higher altitude taking some of the stress off the C17 and C5 for smaller milk runs. Though I wish it had more payload closer to 30 than 26 that’s still a step up.L3Harris is proposing an Embraer KC-390 tanker with a boom to the USAF. It could operate from marginal airfields in the Pacific and receive fuel from larger tankers. Could be just what Embraer needs to stimulate the marketing effort for their Herc plus alternative.
KC-390 With A Boom Could Be The Agile Tanker The Air Force Needs
A modified version of the Brazilian KC-390 could bring fuel forward to austere airstrips and thirsty fighters on edge of enemy airspace.
The problem I see is …
It’s a little late to the party.
Had it been offered in 1996 it might have been able to take the position C130J has. But being that it’s about to turn 2023 the USAF has had 24 years of procurement of C130J. The history of the C130 is all the attempts at replacing it have been humbled with the would be replacements retirement well C130s keep flying.
The C130, B52, KC135, CH47, M2 Browning, M1911A1 and Kabar knives are weapons so iconic and long lasting in the US DOD as to be memes. Though the C130J has orders out into 2026, and with the Ukraine war we could see that line continue as The US and top Nato states seems intent on ensuring Ukrainian forces have a force structure in the post war deterrent against repeat. Given the state of damage suffered it wouldn’t surprise me to see Donated C130’s sporting Blue and yellow in the 2030s flying next to and replacements for veteran AN12s.
I love how they painted it like an orca. That’s just adorable.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
You have raised excellent points as to why the KC-390 would be a great asset for the USAF and also depressing points as to why the KC-390 faces a tough path. Embraer really needed a significant commitment from a major player 5-10 years ago. In some ways, this is similar to Bombardier’s C series albeit Embraer’s management was no where as bad as Bombardier.
Terran
Well-Known Member
Embraer is still a newb in the US Defense market. This could like so many other offers fall flat. The only way I could see this becoming a reality is first if another member or two partners in. Boeing doesn’t seem the best option. Perhaps Northrop Grumman or Sierra Navada.
Next if the USAF make an open statement of taking an interest. Though that might just push Lockheed Martin to put a boom on KC130J.
Next if the USAF make an open statement of taking an interest. Though that might just push Lockheed Martin to put a boom on KC130J.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
A package KC-390/ MRTT, perhaps a LM option to break the Boeing monopoly on USAF tanker requirements assuming L3/Harris are on the same page as LM?
Terran
Well-Known Member
KC390 is far smaller than KC46. The 767 base being closer to C17 in size.
If anything KC390 more a threat to LM’s dominance of the US tactical transport class. It matches potential of the C130J and it’s iterations to almost a T. The only trouble spot being, it’s questionable on building a Gunship. Arsenal ship maybe but I just have a hard time imagining KC390 reacting well to 30mm cannons and a 120mm howitzer sticking out the side. This isn’t meant to break Boeing it’s meant to support a shift in doctrine.
If anything KC390 more a threat to LM’s dominance of the US tactical transport class. It matches potential of the C130J and it’s iterations to almost a T. The only trouble spot being, it’s questionable on building a Gunship. Arsenal ship maybe but I just have a hard time imagining KC390 reacting well to 30mm cannons and a 120mm howitzer sticking out the side. This isn’t meant to break Boeing it’s meant to support a shift in doctrine.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
A LM hook up with Embraer might be detrimental to some Herc sales but it does future proof them for customers wanting additional capability above and beyond what the C-130 offers. More importantly; it might open the door for a US built MRTT. I would think a MRTT order would more than offset some lost Hercules business which may be replaced by a US partnership build of KC-390s The KC-46 doesn’t have the credentials of a Hercules but the Boeing lobby would aggressively push back against a KC-390/MRTT offer by LM.
Terran
Well-Known Member
I am sorry, but Not MRTT makes no sense here. The USAF has pretty well established line they are not going to shift from KC46 to MRTT. The Boeing bird may be troubled but those are sorting. Lockheed Martin has more risk here.
The biggest issue though is you are trying to push two programs that would upended the USAF at the same time they are trying to get the 6th Gen fighters and B21.
The biggest issue though is you are trying to push two programs that would upended the USAF at the same time they are trying to get the 6th Gen fighters and B21.