MARKMILES77
Well-Known Member
The F-5 attack might explain why a Kuwati pilot shot down F-15s.
Middle East Defence & Security
- Thread starter MaenZ
- Start date
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but this is nonsense an completely so.
For example. It is estimated that Russia fired over 13,000 missiles of all types at Ukraine since the beginning of the war, including Tochka and other retro, as well as AD missiles adapted to launch at ground targets. In the first year of war, (estimated) 6,500 (+) were fired, mostly depleting the stockpiles, including the dated stuff.
No one will ever produce these in hundreds of thousands and most certainly not millions. The reason is simple enough: take the arbitrary cost of $1M per unit, you are looking at the number that has twelve zeroes behind it to produce 1 mil; one hundred thousand will have a number with 11 zeroes in it. Those are big numbers that do not account for the higher cost of some (most or all) of the missiles at hand.
Furthermore, the current production capacities are fairly well known. Yet again, you do not need to look beyond the costs to understand the reality.
"Approximately 93 to 94 million motor vehicles (including passenger cars and commercial vehicles) are produced globally every year, based on recent data from 2023 and 2024. "
Need i say more ? A car is a way more challenging and arduous to produce than a Missile.
As of early 2026, Toyota Motor Corporation produces and sells over 10 million vehicles annually.
This is the reality.
Its just that people are not interested on missiles and the demand is still quite low. While people are very interested on cars and the demand is quite high.
Humans are capable or producing even a billion cars each year if they just want to. But there is little reason to, because around 100 million each year is the number that is needed and they do not have market for more. So they just produce the amount they can sell.
If you claim, that for example, a country like US could not produce one million cruise missile each year if they decide to do so. You are wrong.
You also seem to look money from a strange perspective. You represent money as an all mighty force, that moves everything that happens in the world. That it is a limiting factor so that "you cannot do this because you do not have money" but in reality you can. Money is only an artificial tool to motivate people, and especially on capitalist systems people have used to only move and be motivated trough money.
Military Efficiency can never be motivated on a large scale by money only. There needs to be other motivators or factors too. If your military only acts trough money, it will bankrupt the country.
As a capitalist country, this is especially what many places are doing. Russia too. They hire people to army with money. They use mercenaries. Everything resolves around money, and money is the thing that moves the Russian army. That only goes so far, if people have no other motivation than money.
If and when the time comes, that humanity is percieving missiles as more wanted product than a car. They will start to produce them not only in millions, but hundreds of millions. But this is what you can call a "World War Scenario". The industry capacity that is at the moment tailored for military uses around the world is probably less than 0,01%. And then the military equipments are given outrageous, artificially high prices that do not relate on how they are produced in a similar way, than in civil industry.
For example, Iran and Ukraine both are in a situation that they cannot think the military matters on money alone. The way Russia and US is doing. Because their situation is way more dire.
Humans have a capacity to produce enormous amount of stuff if they so choose.
And just then think about China ? How many missiles you think they could produce in a year if they so choose. I would guess in tens, or in hundreds of millions. For example, in China civil industries the problem is not that they would have the capacity to produce more. But they cannot sell more, so they are always left with industry surplus that they would want to sell or dump somewhere because they always produce more than they sell. The moment someone wants to buy something, you can be certain that they will soon have the product, ready to be shipped for you.
Its just so, that people in Europe are also very capitalistic. So the possibility of them to get "their act together" is very low. You would need to first start to vote socialistic or communist political parties, who do not share the capitalistic world view, and can also act on other motivators than money.
Meaning. Europe does not prioritize Military Equipment very highly. They are not interested on producing Military Equipment and they are not interested on Russian - Ukraine or US - Iran or Israel - Palestine wars. The moment they would be, things would start to change and they would scale up their military production.
The reason why Russia, or i suppose Soviet Union also was not producing that much is only because they did not see a need to. Soviet Union was locked in a competitive arms race with US, so they most likely percieved their stock trough US. If US had a low production and stock, they had no reason to produce more. They only needed to produce as much as to keep up with the US or NATO. The moment they would have started to produce more, the Soviet would have done so too.
Perspective of money is narrow. There are other factors in life too. Which the capitalists dont want you to remember, so that they can control your life with their money.
The military equipment is also a political tool and a playground for small grown man. So they like to play around this subject and there are many restrictions real or imagined, on what you can do, what you can produce and so. It is not a civilian industry, and civilians cannot buy the equipment. So there is not much reason to produce them if they are only going to sit on your shelf. But the moment people start to want them and the demand is going up, there will be more production. Its just that what Russia, US, Israel and so does is still so insignificant, that no one is interested. And they also want to avoid the so called "escalation" and any possible arms race.
But in an economic perspective, it would be wise to have stockpiles now. Even Russia would want to buy them because they are in a habit of rather buying them from foreign suppliers than produce their own. The same way they get their soldiers.
The reason Ukraine have hard time to produce at scale, is because Russia is pummeling their country, and industries to the ground. They need to find alternative methods, which is one of the reasons they are producing millions of drones each year, so they can produce them in normal civilian homes instead of large centralized factories which would be more efficient, but would be destroyed too easily by Russian Missiles and Drones, which are still plentiful enough, to cause a lot of damage. What Ukraine is doing now, is installing their production on European soil, so that Russia cannot hit them without thinking about the NATO clause. They have managed to arrange, and talk themself into this position, that they can start to produce their equipment on foreign soil where the factories are not bombarded.
You can be assured, that the moment Russia and Ukraine, and also when the bombing of Iran stops. Ukraine and Iran both, will scale up their Military production, and start to produce a lot of military equipment. Because they are left with a national trauma, where a stronger adversary with more military stockpile attacks them, and they do not have enough stockpile to defend. They do not want this to happen again. Iran Infrastructure at the moment is probably destroyed. Russia destroyed Ukraine infrastructure and military production capacity in the first few weeks of their assault. Ukraine officials stated two weeks after the attack, that they do not basically have military production capacity anymore, because Russia destroyed everything.
The production of Iranian Missiles, will become hundredfold in the future. If they are left in peace to produce their infrastructure. So that the next time they are attacked, they have a large stockpile, hundreds of thousands or millions of missiles, and those carrier task groups will be sunk. And they most likely dont want to sell them either, they want to keep them and wait for the moment that the US or Israel comes back. This is if they are in the mind to do this, or are let to do so by the US. They could also go for some kind of enforced peace with US, give them what they want, most likely oil. And then just continue to be vassalized by them.
The things that a capitalistic regime like Russia does, is not the extend of the human industrial capacity. Even they would very much wish everyone to believe so.
This is the same thing everywhere. People are coded like peons to say in response "do you have any idea what it would cost ?" like it would be the highest truth and the only limiting, or allowing factor in existence.
Then to be left thinking. Yes i do. But i also understand that money is not everything there is.
Capitalistic world view is not the only one that exist. And peons of capitalism are not the only type of people that exist. If you forget about the money, remove it from equation entirely. You can start to see what is REALLY possible. Not just what your capitalist masters want you to think is possible. But what is actually real.
To make industry production you need: Workforce, Logistics, Raw materials, Energy, Processing -> End Product
Where is the money ?
Its funny for me to see, how a past Communist place like Soviet Union, the driving force behind it, is one of the worst capitalist regimes in the world, and their people one of the worst capitalistic peons there is. Soviet Union was established to counter capitalism. And now their progeny are one of the worst capitalists there is and only think about money, which by the way, they do not control, but the US does. You are only given the illusion of control, but everyone knows where the true masters of capitalism reside, and it is not in Russia and especially not in Iran. So capitalists won, and Soviet lost. And now their citizens are spreading capitalist agenda everywhere at the same time, than somehow feeling nostalgic about the system that was built to counter it.
You really think capitalism is in your own advantage ?
I do remember Finland doing trades with past Soviet Union. There was no money involved. They just told you what equipment they need, for example trains, boats, metal buckets and so. Then you made them for them, and you could choose weapons from their inventory so that they could work less, and gain more civilian equipment by only producing weapons that are percieved as "more valuable" than the civilian goods. And it was not entirely voluntary. The moment they wanted something they came and offered you this trade, and you were hard pressed to say no.
Need i say more ? A car is a way more challenging and arduous to produce than a Missile.
As of early 2026, Toyota Motor Corporation produces and sells over 10 million vehicles annually.
This is the reality.
Its just that people are not interested on missiles and the demand is still quite low. While people are very interested on cars and the demand is quite high.
Humans are capable or producing even a billion cars each year if they just want to. But there is little reason to, because around 100 million each year is the number that is needed and they do not have market for more. So they just produce the amount they can sell.
If you claim, that for example, a country like US could not produce one million cruise missile each year if they decide to do so. You are wrong.
You also seem to look money from a strange perspective. You represent money as an all mighty force, that moves everything that happens in the world. That it is a limiting factor so that "you cannot do this because you do not have money" but in reality you can. Money is only an artificial tool to motivate people, and especially on capitalist systems people have used to only move and be motivated trough money.
Military Efficiency can never be motivated on a large scale by money only. There needs to be other motivators or factors too. If your military only acts trough money, it will bankrupt the country.
As a capitalist country, this is especially what many places are doing. Russia too. They hire people to army with money. They use mercenaries. Everything resolves around money, and money is the thing that moves the Russian army. That only goes so far, if people have no other motivation than money.
If and when the time comes, that humanity is percieving missiles as more wanted product than a car. They will start to produce them not only in millions, but hundreds of millions. But this is what you can call a "World War Scenario". The industry capacity that is at the moment tailored for military uses around the world is probably less than 0,01%. And then the military equipments are given outrageous, artificially high prices that do not relate on how they are produced in a similar way, than in civil industry.
For example, Iran and Ukraine both are in a situation that they cannot think the military matters on money alone. The way Russia and US is doing. Because their situation is way more dire.
Humans have a capacity to produce enormous amount of stuff if they so choose.
And just then think about China ? How many missiles you think they could produce in a year if they so choose. I would guess in tens, or in hundreds of millions. For example, in China civil industries the problem is not that they would have the capacity to produce more. But they cannot sell more, so they are always left with industry surplus that they would want to sell or dump somewhere because they always produce more than they sell. The moment someone wants to buy something, you can be certain that they will soon have the product, ready to be shipped for you.
Its just so, that people in Europe are also very capitalistic. So the possibility of them to get "their act together" is very low. You would need to first start to vote socialistic or communist political parties, who do not share the capitalistic world view, and can also act on other motivators than money.
Meaning. Europe does not prioritize Military Equipment very highly. They are not interested on producing Military Equipment and they are not interested on Russian - Ukraine or US - Iran or Israel - Palestine wars. The moment they would be, things would start to change and they would scale up their military production.
The reason why Russia, or i suppose Soviet Union also was not producing that much is only because they did not see a need to. Soviet Union was locked in a competitive arms race with US, so they most likely percieved their stock trough US. If US had a low production and stock, they had no reason to produce more. They only needed to produce as much as to keep up with the US or NATO. The moment they would have started to produce more, the Soviet would have done so too.
Perspective of money is narrow. There are other factors in life too. Which the capitalists dont want you to remember, so that they can control your life with their money.
The military equipment is also a political tool and a playground for small grown man. So they like to play around this subject and there are many restrictions real or imagined, on what you can do, what you can produce and so. It is not a civilian industry, and civilians cannot buy the equipment. So there is not much reason to produce them if they are only going to sit on your shelf. But the moment people start to want them and the demand is going up, there will be more production. Its just that what Russia, US, Israel and so does is still so insignificant, that no one is interested. And they also want to avoid the so called "escalation" and any possible arms race.
But in an economic perspective, it would be wise to have stockpiles now. Even Russia would want to buy them because they are in a habit of rather buying them from foreign suppliers than produce their own. The same way they get their soldiers.
The reason Ukraine have hard time to produce at scale, is because Russia is pummeling their country, and industries to the ground. They need to find alternative methods, which is one of the reasons they are producing millions of drones each year, so they can produce them in normal civilian homes instead of large centralized factories which would be more efficient, but would be destroyed too easily by Russian Missiles and Drones, which are still plentiful enough, to cause a lot of damage. What Ukraine is doing now, is installing their production on European soil, so that Russia cannot hit them without thinking about the NATO clause. They have managed to arrange, and talk themself into this position, that they can start to produce their equipment on foreign soil where the factories are not bombarded.
You can be assured, that the moment Russia and Ukraine, and also when the bombing of Iran stops. Ukraine and Iran both, will scale up their Military production, and start to produce a lot of military equipment. Because they are left with a national trauma, where a stronger adversary with more military stockpile attacks them, and they do not have enough stockpile to defend. They do not want this to happen again. Iran Infrastructure at the moment is probably destroyed. Russia destroyed Ukraine infrastructure and military production capacity in the first few weeks of their assault. Ukraine officials stated two weeks after the attack, that they do not basically have military production capacity anymore, because Russia destroyed everything.
The production of Iranian Missiles, will become hundredfold in the future. If they are left in peace to produce their infrastructure. So that the next time they are attacked, they have a large stockpile, hundreds of thousands or millions of missiles, and those carrier task groups will be sunk. And they most likely dont want to sell them either, they want to keep them and wait for the moment that the US or Israel comes back. This is if they are in the mind to do this, or are let to do so by the US. They could also go for some kind of enforced peace with US, give them what they want, most likely oil. And then just continue to be vassalized by them.
The things that a capitalistic regime like Russia does, is not the extend of the human industrial capacity. Even they would very much wish everyone to believe so.
This is the same thing everywhere. People are coded like peons to say in response "do you have any idea what it would cost ?" like it would be the highest truth and the only limiting, or allowing factor in existence.
Then to be left thinking. Yes i do. But i also understand that money is not everything there is.
Capitalistic world view is not the only one that exist. And peons of capitalism are not the only type of people that exist. If you forget about the money, remove it from equation entirely. You can start to see what is REALLY possible. Not just what your capitalist masters want you to think is possible. But what is actually real.
To make industry production you need: Workforce, Logistics, Raw materials, Energy, Processing -> End Product
Where is the money ?
Its funny for me to see, how a past Communist place like Soviet Union, the driving force behind it, is one of the worst capitalist regimes in the world, and their people one of the worst capitalistic peons there is. Soviet Union was established to counter capitalism. And now their progeny are one of the worst capitalists there is and only think about money, which by the way, they do not control, but the US does. You are only given the illusion of control, but everyone knows where the true masters of capitalism reside, and it is not in Russia and especially not in Iran. So capitalists won, and Soviet lost. And now their citizens are spreading capitalist agenda everywhere at the same time, than somehow feeling nostalgic about the system that was built to counter it.
You really think capitalism is in your own advantage ?
I do remember Finland doing trades with past Soviet Union. There was no money involved. They just told you what equipment they need, for example trains, boats, metal buckets and so. Then you made them for them, and you could choose weapons from their inventory so that they could work less, and gain more civilian equipment by only producing weapons that are percieved as "more valuable" than the civilian goods. And it was not entirely voluntary. The moment they wanted something they came and offered you this trade, and you were hard pressed to say no.
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rsemmes
Active Member
Have you been licking angry toads, intensively?
If you were a Marine in Vietnam, you mean air drops in bases, with some of the ammo falling in enemy hands.
How are you planning to get all those slow transports there? How many transports and for how long?
Any thoughts about how many are going to be slaughter in a civil war? You could have a look at Iraq, Syria and Libya.
Then, let's see... First of all, some of all those weapons will fall into the hands of those loyal to their government (so, neither traitors nor rebels). So, one housewife, for example, gets a pistol and one extra magazine or two... and then she is doing what exactly? Talking to some other housewiwes to assault the TV station, all by themselves?
I wonder what are all those American militias waiting for to liberate themselves from their government. At least, they are, in some way, organized.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Probably waiting for an attack order from their hero after his MAGA gang gets clobbered in the Nov midterm elections.
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
Not really. In fact, not at all.
There is a reason Toyota produces and sells 10M cars a year, while Bugatti and Aston Martin, et al, do not. For the same reason, Toyota Corolla is the best selling vehicle of all time, followed by (in no particular order) VW Golf, Honda Civic, Ford F-150. The same reason also applies to stockpiles and production of various weapons and systems. For example, “dumb” artillery ammunition stockpiles are measured in millions of rounds, while “smart” rounds don’t even come close. There are millions of “dumb” bombs laying around; “smart” bombs are a rarity in comparison (I am not talking about conversion kits, etc). Whether you like it or not, things have to make economic sense; otherwise, entities go broke, including countries.
The number of cars produced and sold are determined by the market. Just like other assets people buy. They are productive assets and have productive value/return on investment. A half-a-million-dollar combine generates income that pays for the asset itself and the income it generates is higher than the cost of the asset, which is why it is economically viable and relevant.
I am not. Laughing. Here are some estimated costs of the US missiles:
Per: Cost and Value in Air and Missile Defense Intercepts
Take a Tomahawk at an average cost of $2M. You are looking at $2T to produce 1M units. This is insane from any perspective. Cost aside, there is no military purpose to such an endeavour. Missile production aside, these have to be launched as they do not just take flight on their own. These launchers cost magnitudes more. Furthermore, the infrastructure, that is not dual-use, to produce these assets would cost asinine amount of money. None of what you are talking about makes any sense.
Again, and most importantly, these quantities completely lack military purpose.
Another article on the costs:
The Hidden Cost of a Missile: Why the Headlines Get Cost Wrong
Since late 2023, the U.S. Navy has fired nearly $1 billion worth of munitions to protect ships in the Red Sea from low-cost Houthi drones and missiles.
warontherocks.com
Again, whether you like it or not, it does.
It is and you can’t.
Complete nonsense again. Money is the medium of exchange. Things have value due to availability, as they always did before money had ever existed. Money simplify barter that involves goods, labour, etc, even money itself. Credit - another form of money - permits for development via borrowing to produce income. Borrowing that does not produce income or produces less than the costs of borrowing is bad debt that leads to insolvency. You need to read a book. On the subject, I would recommend The Ascent of Money by Niall Ferguson. Another good read is How Countries Go Broke by Ray Dalio.
What? Again, you cannot produce things out of thin air. You can decrease the cost of cruise missiles via scaling, though you would eventually run into scarcity of components, etc, but you cannot just produce them because you think you can. The entire argument is… well, dumb.
This is some take from a fantasy that has no basis in reality. Again, look at the numbers. You are hallucinating. The world’s total output is about $120T today. Your world war scenario will look like what is happening in Ukraine today, not production that you think should happen.
In this article (UA -> grain of salt), they discuss the costs of various Russian missiles:
From Kalibr to Kinzhal: How Much Do Russian Missiles Really Cost?
Information from procurement documents obtained by Militarnyi sheds light for the first time on the supply of missiles to the Russian army.
militarnyi.com
Another one:
Analysts break down real cost of Russian missiles
Ukrainian defense news outlet Militarnyi has released a comprehensive analysis of classified procurement documents outlining the true cost and production volumes of Russia's long-range missile arsenal. According to the report, the documents shed new light on the scale and financial
defence-blog.com
Use your search engine of choice to find the Chinese, European, and others’ costs of production. They are all comparable for a reason. No one cracked the nut yet.
So why does Ukraine not produce gazillion cruise missiles? It is certainly at the point you describe, where this should be happening. Why is Iran not launching (tens of) thousands of missiles it reportedly still has? Why does Russia produce and launch thousands of low-cost Gerans instead of producing gazillion ballistic missiles that are mostly not intercepted? Why not gazillion Oreshniks with proper warheads, to the point that precision does not even matter? Why invest in nukes at all if you can simply produce millions of cruise missiles that can deliver total victory in short order over any landmass on Earth? Why is there economic and geopolitical competition in the world if anyone at any point can simply switch to cruise missile production and dominate the world? Laughing.
Sure, limited by the resources available.
Anyway, you are talking nonsense. I am going to pass on replying if the posts that follow are in the same universe (which is not where we all live). You sound like the Spaniard that we had recently had the pleasure of hosting.
From what I've read, Russia's cruise missile stocks seem to be above the number required to destroy all NATO airbases. Can the U.S. claim to present the same danger? I honestly can't figure out who's bluffing.Not really. In fact, not at all.
There is a reason Toyota produces and sells 10M cars a year, while Bugatti and Aston Martin, et al, do not. For the same reason, Toyota Corolla is the best selling vehicle of all time, followed by (in no particular order) VW Golf, Honda Civic, Ford F-150. The same reason also applies to stockpiles and production of various weapons and systems. For example, “dumb” artillery ammunition stockpiles are measured in millions of rounds, while “smart” rounds don’t even come close. There are millions of “dumb” bombs laying around; “smart” bombs are a rarity in comparison (I am not talking about conversion kits, etc). Whether you like it or not, things have to make economic sense; otherwise, entities go broke, including countries.
The number of cars produced and sold are determined by the market. Just like other assets people buy. They are productive assets and have productive value/return on investment. A half-a-million-dollar combine generates income that pays for the asset itself and the income it generates is higher than the cost of the asset, which is why it is economically viable and relevant.
I am not. Laughing. Here are some estimated costs of the US missiles:
View attachment 54753
Per: Cost and Value in Air and Missile Defense Intercepts
Take a Tomahawk at an average cost of $2M. You are looking at $2T to produce 1M units. This is insane from any perspective. Cost aside, there is no military purpose to such an endeavour. Missile production aside, these have to be launched as they do not just take flight on their own. These launchers cost magnitudes more. Furthermore, the infrastructure, that is not dual-use, to produce these assets would cost asinine amount of money. None of what you are talking about makes any sense.
Again, and most importantly, these quantities completely lack military purpose.
Another article on the costs:
The Hidden Cost of a Missile: Why the Headlines Get Cost Wrong
Since late 2023, the U.S. Navy has fired nearly $1 billion worth of munitions to protect ships in the Red Sea from low-cost Houthi drones and missiles.warontherocks.com
Again, whether you like it or not, it does.
It is and you can’t.
Complete nonsense again. Money is the medium of exchange. Things have value due to availability, as they always did before money had ever existed. Money simplify barter that involves goods, labour, etc, even money itself. Credit - another form of money - permits for development via borrowing to produce income. Borrowing that does not produce income or produces less than the costs of borrowing is bad debt that leads to insolvency. You need to read a book. On the subject, I would recommend The Ascent of Money by Niall Ferguson. Another good read is How Countries Go Broke by Ray Dalio.
What? Again, you cannot produce things out of thin air. You can decrease the cost of cruise missiles via scaling, though you would eventually run into scarcity of components, etc, but you cannot just produce them because you think you can. The entire argument is… well, dumb.
This is some take from a fantasy that has no basis in reality. Again, look at the numbers. You are hallucinating. The world’s total output is about $120T today. Your world war scenario will look like what is happening in Ukraine today, not production that you think should happen.
In this article (UA -> grain of salt), they discuss the costs of various Russian missiles:
From Kalibr to Kinzhal: How Much Do Russian Missiles Really Cost?
Information from procurement documents obtained by Militarnyi sheds light for the first time on the supply of missiles to the Russian army.
Another one:
Analysts break down real cost of Russian missiles
Ukrainian defense news outlet Militarnyi has released a comprehensive analysis of classified procurement documents outlining the true cost and production volumes of Russia's long-range missile arsenal. According to the report, the documents shed new light on the scale and financial
Use your search engine of choice to find the Chinese, European, and others’ costs of production. They are all comparable for a reason. No one cracked the nut yet.
So why does Ukraine not produce gazillion cruise missiles? It is certainly at the point you describe, where this should be happening. Why is Iran not launching (tens of) thousands of missiles it reportedly still has? Why does Russia produce and launch thousands of low-cost Gerans instead of producing gazillion ballistic missiles that are mostly not intercepted? Why not gazillion Oreshniks with proper warheads, to the point that precision does not even matter? Why invest in nukes at all if you can simply produce millions of cruise missiles that can deliver total victory in short order over any landmass on Earth? Why is there economic and geopolitical competition in the world if anyone at any point can simply switch to cruise missile production and dominate the world? Laughing.
Sure, limited by the resources available.
Anyway, you are talking nonsense. I am going to pass on replying if the posts that follow are in the same universe (which is not where we all live). You sound like the Spaniard that we had recently had the pleasure of hosting.
Spoken like a true capitalist, who tries to twist peoples mind to believe something that is completely absurd.
To make a missile you need Motor, Fuel, Chassis, Computer and Optics. Thats it.
To make a drone you need motor, (fuel), chassis, computer, optics. And that costs you 200 dollars. You basically just add a jet motor and you have a missile. They do produce these "missile drones" too.
Its not that complicated, really.
To make a guided munition you add aerodynamic properties, Computer, your chose of optics and there you have it. Sometimes you add a rocket motor.
You can sell a missile with those prices you mentioned, and above. And those procurement costs or any manufacture costs are not real, they are just invented to float the industry.
If you pay 50 000 of your car, how many cars you get with a price of one JASSM for example. Maybe 30 or more ?
Which is harder to produce, 30 cars or one JASSM ?
Car models wont relate much.
"Take a Tomahawk at an average cost of $2M. You are looking at $2T to produce 1M units. This is insane from any perspective" whatever man. I dont share your World view, im not a capitalist. The only thing you can ever think about is money. Wouldnt that mean, that the one who have more money always wins every war ? So in this meaning, China would have no chance to US. China and Russia combined, would be a pushover for US because they have more money than Russia and China combined. No, you cannot produce military equipment because do you know how much it costs ? No, that is not possible. Only the US can produce, because they have the money to do it. And then what about Soldiers, do you know how much their enlistment costs, or their salaries or upkeep ? No, you cannot acquire soldiers with this amount of money, its not possible. The Russian soldier enlistment cost tops at something like 50 000 dollars for one and then you have other expenses too. You want million of them its 50 billion on the go and then another 50 billion for equipment, maintenance and all kind of other expenses. And if they injure or perish, i suppose you pay more compensations for it so that costs too. You can actually buy a car with the price you get one soldier to only sign the paper in the Russian system.
"You are looking at $2T to produce 1M units " to produce. You seriously claim its 2 trillion "to produce" and not "to buy from them after they have been produced". You are twisting this thing real hard and what are your motives. You own their stocks ?
If money would not exist, you assume that all humanity die for famine, because no one would have "money to buy or produce food" ?
The money is the only thing that keeps humanity Fed. And without money, we would all die because no one would have money to produce food and eat it anymore. Just continue believing that, your capitalist masters like that belief.
There is actually this funny belief, that people believed for real, that was circulating about Soviet Union in the western world. People believed, that "Soviet Union would have lots of resources but they do not have money to acquire and process them, so they cannot sell them to grow rich like we do". Meaning. You first need money to sell, to gain more money. Meaning, you need first to have a western partnership that they come to your country because you dont have money to do it. Then they will sell their resources for you because you dont have money to do that. You understand ?
You need to first be a western country, and only then you can sell resources. If the resource happens to be on the soil of communist regimes, they cannot sell them because they dont have money to do it.
If you want something. Just forget about anything anyone say about what they "cost". Acquire the tech yourself. Then start to produce the components and assemble them. But if you do not produce them yourself, and you only buy them, then you for certainly need to worry about the cost.
You gave the list about procurement cost of US missiles. Now do the same with North Korean ones. How much money North Korea pays for their industry to acquire one Missile ? I dont know much about North Korea, but they do not have economy in the normal means. And it can also somehow be possible, that they dont even pay salaries for their workers ? And speaking of North Korea, i think they are currently building some kind of leisure centers for their citizens. Are rolling in the fuel that Russia throws at them for more munitions and missiles. Not selling them for money but changing directly for oil or similar and Iran wanted gold. They are now building 3x more production capacity for their military industry. Most likely, continuing to be one of the largest suppliers of Russian Army. There was an estimate, that North Korea produces about half of the munitions that Russia use.
ICBM might be more arduous to produce than a car. But i do believe, that something like Taurus or JASSM is not.
So there you have it. NATO controls 2/3 of the money flow in the entire world. If not even more. You can just copy paste the GDP ratio of every country and think its the same as military might on those countries. Happens to be that a country like France might have a larger GDP than Russia, which automatically means that France would walk over Russia 1 on 1. Europe have actually many countries with higher GDP than Russia. Meaning that there are many countries that would win Russia 1 on 1 in Europe. And then for some strange reason, when these countries that are supposed to be stronger individually than Russia, group together, they all cover in fear even as a group when facing the Russia alone. It wasnt the money after all. So why can Russia, basically walk over entire Europe in Military Mentality, when they have many times lower GDP ?
"This is some take from a fantasy that has no basis in reality. Again, look at the numbers. You are hallucinating. The world’s total output is about $120T today. Your world war scenario will look like what is happening in Ukraine today, not production that you think should happen."
Again with the money. And yes, any military would aim to strike down the opposing side production. This is why the production would be hard to happen. But if you start the production at peace time, before anyone blows up your factories, you can just produce in peace. Its kind of for nothing to think about it, because lets hope it wont happen. Then left hallucinating is a really good outcome than if they would for real, start to pump a lot of military equipment and we for real, would be in the middle of another World War.
World War II they had quite high production numbers. Even only Germany built around 2 000 Submarines in relatively small amount of time. They did produce quite a lot in World War II, even their industries were being bombed and such. And the US was left untouched and could produce in peace so. Their methods and automation was not at the level world is now. For example if you would think, that the entire US would start to build only military equipment. Then what kind of output could they muster. This is what im hallucinating. That all of the industry capacity is redirected to military equipment alone and then you choose a focus point in there, which in this case is Missiles.
They are scaling it up at the moment. They are doing it. North Korea is now scaling it up 3x, Europe probably similar amounts if not even more and so. Then if this thing continues, they will scale it up again and again. North Korea scales it up because they are the main supplier for Russia. And Europe scales it up because they are the main supplier for Ukraine. And North Korea alone, might produce similar amount of military equipment, at least munitions, than the whole of Europe grouped together. How can they do it, if their GDP is not even available. Their GDP must be enormous, in the trillions. So you forgot in your 120 Trillion Dollar World GDP about North Korea, which ups it with another 20 trillion because they produce so much military equipment and "do you know how much it costs" but it is just not mentioned, because the US is a bit of jealous while the North Korea is starting to have a higher GDP than the United States so it must be cencored and dont tell anyone.
So you want to have a higher GDP than United States ? Well, then start to produce 10 million Tomahawk equilevants each year and there you have it. How much is it then, 20 trillion. Still not enough. Then produce 20 million and you have 40 trillion GDP, leaving the entire US economy on the dust by only producing 20 million Tomahawks in a year. Even North Korea might be able to pull this off if they really would want to. A worthy endavour if you ask me. For just being able to say to have the highest GDP in the world. Or, are you saying that the great people of North Korea would not be up for this task ?
"Again, whether you like it or not, it does. " does not. For example, im not getting paid to write this now. So how can i write this then ? Some people somewhere are getting paid for writing still. But im not one of them. You actually might be. Are you paid to write propaganda in the forums ? And the moment they would not pay you anymore, you would never use your time to write again ? Russia actually does this. They have an army of so called Internet Trolls who are in the government pay list, to flood the western world with their nonsense. In Finland, they have actually managed to make some people believe that "a war that will decide the fate of the world is being fought inside Finnish Army underground strongholds" so that the Finnish people will aim to infiltrate there, and take pictures of the Finnish Army secret underground bases and post them to Russians in the dark web. They actually tried this, and got caught and sentenced. Believing a Russian person who claim them that "the war of the worlds is being fought on the Finnish Army Underground networks".
To make a missile you need Motor, Fuel, Chassis, Computer and Optics. Thats it.
To make a drone you need motor, (fuel), chassis, computer, optics. And that costs you 200 dollars. You basically just add a jet motor and you have a missile. They do produce these "missile drones" too.
Its not that complicated, really.
To make a guided munition you add aerodynamic properties, Computer, your chose of optics and there you have it. Sometimes you add a rocket motor.
You can sell a missile with those prices you mentioned, and above. And those procurement costs or any manufacture costs are not real, they are just invented to float the industry.
If you pay 50 000 of your car, how many cars you get with a price of one JASSM for example. Maybe 30 or more ?
Which is harder to produce, 30 cars or one JASSM ?
Car models wont relate much.
"Take a Tomahawk at an average cost of $2M. You are looking at $2T to produce 1M units. This is insane from any perspective" whatever man. I dont share your World view, im not a capitalist. The only thing you can ever think about is money. Wouldnt that mean, that the one who have more money always wins every war ? So in this meaning, China would have no chance to US. China and Russia combined, would be a pushover for US because they have more money than Russia and China combined. No, you cannot produce military equipment because do you know how much it costs ? No, that is not possible. Only the US can produce, because they have the money to do it. And then what about Soldiers, do you know how much their enlistment costs, or their salaries or upkeep ? No, you cannot acquire soldiers with this amount of money, its not possible. The Russian soldier enlistment cost tops at something like 50 000 dollars for one and then you have other expenses too. You want million of them its 50 billion on the go and then another 50 billion for equipment, maintenance and all kind of other expenses. And if they injure or perish, i suppose you pay more compensations for it so that costs too. You can actually buy a car with the price you get one soldier to only sign the paper in the Russian system.
"You are looking at $2T to produce 1M units " to produce. You seriously claim its 2 trillion "to produce" and not "to buy from them after they have been produced". You are twisting this thing real hard and what are your motives. You own their stocks ?
If money would not exist, you assume that all humanity die for famine, because no one would have "money to buy or produce food" ?
The money is the only thing that keeps humanity Fed. And without money, we would all die because no one would have money to produce food and eat it anymore. Just continue believing that, your capitalist masters like that belief.
There is actually this funny belief, that people believed for real, that was circulating about Soviet Union in the western world. People believed, that "Soviet Union would have lots of resources but they do not have money to acquire and process them, so they cannot sell them to grow rich like we do". Meaning. You first need money to sell, to gain more money. Meaning, you need first to have a western partnership that they come to your country because you dont have money to do it. Then they will sell their resources for you because you dont have money to do that. You understand ?
You need to first be a western country, and only then you can sell resources. If the resource happens to be on the soil of communist regimes, they cannot sell them because they dont have money to do it.
If you want something. Just forget about anything anyone say about what they "cost". Acquire the tech yourself. Then start to produce the components and assemble them. But if you do not produce them yourself, and you only buy them, then you for certainly need to worry about the cost.
You gave the list about procurement cost of US missiles. Now do the same with North Korean ones. How much money North Korea pays for their industry to acquire one Missile ? I dont know much about North Korea, but they do not have economy in the normal means. And it can also somehow be possible, that they dont even pay salaries for their workers ? And speaking of North Korea, i think they are currently building some kind of leisure centers for their citizens. Are rolling in the fuel that Russia throws at them for more munitions and missiles. Not selling them for money but changing directly for oil or similar and Iran wanted gold. They are now building 3x more production capacity for their military industry. Most likely, continuing to be one of the largest suppliers of Russian Army. There was an estimate, that North Korea produces about half of the munitions that Russia use.
ICBM might be more arduous to produce than a car. But i do believe, that something like Taurus or JASSM is not.
So there you have it. NATO controls 2/3 of the money flow in the entire world. If not even more. You can just copy paste the GDP ratio of every country and think its the same as military might on those countries. Happens to be that a country like France might have a larger GDP than Russia, which automatically means that France would walk over Russia 1 on 1. Europe have actually many countries with higher GDP than Russia. Meaning that there are many countries that would win Russia 1 on 1 in Europe. And then for some strange reason, when these countries that are supposed to be stronger individually than Russia, group together, they all cover in fear even as a group when facing the Russia alone. It wasnt the money after all. So why can Russia, basically walk over entire Europe in Military Mentality, when they have many times lower GDP ?
"This is some take from a fantasy that has no basis in reality. Again, look at the numbers. You are hallucinating. The world’s total output is about $120T today. Your world war scenario will look like what is happening in Ukraine today, not production that you think should happen."
Again with the money. And yes, any military would aim to strike down the opposing side production. This is why the production would be hard to happen. But if you start the production at peace time, before anyone blows up your factories, you can just produce in peace. Its kind of for nothing to think about it, because lets hope it wont happen. Then left hallucinating is a really good outcome than if they would for real, start to pump a lot of military equipment and we for real, would be in the middle of another World War.
World War II they had quite high production numbers. Even only Germany built around 2 000 Submarines in relatively small amount of time. They did produce quite a lot in World War II, even their industries were being bombed and such. And the US was left untouched and could produce in peace so. Their methods and automation was not at the level world is now. For example if you would think, that the entire US would start to build only military equipment. Then what kind of output could they muster. This is what im hallucinating. That all of the industry capacity is redirected to military equipment alone and then you choose a focus point in there, which in this case is Missiles.
They are scaling it up at the moment. They are doing it. North Korea is now scaling it up 3x, Europe probably similar amounts if not even more and so. Then if this thing continues, they will scale it up again and again. North Korea scales it up because they are the main supplier for Russia. And Europe scales it up because they are the main supplier for Ukraine. And North Korea alone, might produce similar amount of military equipment, at least munitions, than the whole of Europe grouped together. How can they do it, if their GDP is not even available. Their GDP must be enormous, in the trillions. So you forgot in your 120 Trillion Dollar World GDP about North Korea, which ups it with another 20 trillion because they produce so much military equipment and "do you know how much it costs" but it is just not mentioned, because the US is a bit of jealous while the North Korea is starting to have a higher GDP than the United States so it must be cencored and dont tell anyone.
So you want to have a higher GDP than United States ? Well, then start to produce 10 million Tomahawk equilevants each year and there you have it. How much is it then, 20 trillion. Still not enough. Then produce 20 million and you have 40 trillion GDP, leaving the entire US economy on the dust by only producing 20 million Tomahawks in a year. Even North Korea might be able to pull this off if they really would want to. A worthy endavour if you ask me. For just being able to say to have the highest GDP in the world. Or, are you saying that the great people of North Korea would not be up for this task ?
"Again, whether you like it or not, it does. " does not. For example, im not getting paid to write this now. So how can i write this then ? Some people somewhere are getting paid for writing still. But im not one of them. You actually might be. Are you paid to write propaganda in the forums ? And the moment they would not pay you anymore, you would never use your time to write again ? Russia actually does this. They have an army of so called Internet Trolls who are in the government pay list, to flood the western world with their nonsense. In Finland, they have actually managed to make some people believe that "a war that will decide the fate of the world is being fought inside Finnish Army underground strongholds" so that the Finnish people will aim to infiltrate there, and take pictures of the Finnish Army secret underground bases and post them to Russians in the dark web. They actually tried this, and got caught and sentenced. Believing a Russian person who claim them that "the war of the worlds is being fought on the Finnish Army Underground networks".
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"So why does Ukraine not produce gazillion cruise missiles? It is certainly at the point you describe, where this should be happening. Why is Iran not launching (tens of) thousands of missiles it reportedly still has? Why does Russia produce and launch thousands of low-cost Gerans instead of producing gazillion ballistic missiles that are mostly not intercepted? Why not gazillion Oreshniks with proper warheads, to the point that precision does not even matter? Why invest in nukes at all if you can simply produce millions of cruise missiles that can deliver total victory in short order over any landmass on Earth? Why is there economic and geopolitical competition in the world if anyone at any point can simply switch to cruise missile production and dominate the world? Laughing."
I think you Russians should have an answer to these yourself. The reason why they are producing the drones can be, because they can order components from foreign suppliers quite cheaply, and then hire African people to assemble them. It takes less expertise because its lower tech level, and they are easier to produce for people with no expertized skills. The production lines are probably easier to assemble and you can buy component to them from Civilian Market. This is again on the purpose of keeping it as a "Special Military Operation" and not a real war. Would Russia declare an official all out war on Ukraine, or anyone else. The thing would most likely look different. Drones and Drone Components are acquired because there is already a Civilian Industry that produces them and the world at the moment is still at the stance, where the Civilian Industries are preferable. They do not want to produce more Military Industy, and if they can acquire dual use goods to be altered on military use they would rather do that. There is also the price point. Civilian Industries sell you cheaper than Military ones because they are more common, and a normal part of the economy. Military Industry is specialized, and commands this kind of premiums you mentioned in your post.
Ukraine is in the reins. They cannot do much without their capital masters telling them, and you know this. The things Ukraine "wants to do" and what they "are able to do" are very different. And then there is that the Russians are pummeling their own area so its quite hard to establish a large scale production there. They are probably doing a good job on what they can achieve, being thankful of the help they can get but because the Europe and United States are very afraid of Russia, especially their Nuclear Arsenal, so dont want a confrontation with Russia. Their thought process is guided by fear of Russia so they are driven to stances of appeasament instead of aggression. If we are to go hallucinating, take a time machine, and install Hitler as the dictator of all of Europe, and see what would happen. You would not like the outcome. No one would.
The Iranians probably sold many of their assets to Russia, and are now regretting the decision. If i am not mistaken, their representative is in Russia this very moment. Discussing about the subject.
I was wondering what happened for that Spaniard. I was reading this forum before i ever wrote in it and he seemed like a good guy. At least his heart was on the right place.
The fantasies and imagination of people are what makes things possible. You first need to have a vision, and then you can choose to act on it or not. The vision of European leaders is not a confrontation versus Russia, but they cannot leave Ukraine alone either. They dont want any wars, and are driven to bad situation when a country near them, who depends on them, and would be annihilated without them, asks for help. You would had to be a real monster, for not helping them and any person who have even a trace of humanity left would feel compassion for the Ukrainian people among their struggles versus the invading Russia. And among the European Union, there are many countries who know first hand the horror of Russia, and will never abandon Ukraine on their struggle. The Baltic states being the biggest supporters of defending Ukraine, being old Soviet States as well. They know what Russia do very well, and dont like them much for it. And are demanding that Ukraine will be helped. Places like Spain are actually quite neutral, and dont care that much. Which is good to see, that there is even one Spanish person who takes the struggle of Ukrainian people to their heart.
This is probably very off topic. As this thread is about Middle East. But i suppose it does relate to some extend.
And it is good to see that there is laughter in Russia. The laughter and smiles in the darkest of places, still to be found.
But as this thing escalates and i suppose it will. Those smiles in the Russian faces might dry up as well. Maybe a million Cruise Missiles donated to Ukraine would help in that ?
"What? Again, you cannot produce things out of thin air. You can decrease the cost of cruise missiles via scaling, though you would eventually run into scarcity of components, etc, but you cannot just produce them because you think you can. The entire argument is… well, dumb. "
Scarcity of components ? How come, if you are producing them by the millions ? Where is the scarcity then ? And yes. You can produce them only because you think you can. Because you can. What exactly is stopping you other than a mind set where you think you can not. There is this company in the capitalist world with this slogan "Just Do It".
This is from RTX. One of the biggest US military producers. Pathetic. Just absolutely pathetic. Peanuts, as they say.
The question is. Where does Ukraine even really need US as their supplier. When they cannot, or choose not to even produce at scale ?
The military industrial capacity of the US is so low at the moment, that you do not need them for anything, really. But they too, can scale it up if they so choose.
There things are being pierced, or what term you used in the US at the moment by private enterprises who are new startup companies. One of them is aiming to produce a cheap Cruise Missile concept, which sells at 200 000 dollars for one. And they aim to scale the production to the millions, and the US Defense Department is planning to purchase them. There is also this one other company, established by single individual, who are developing a 155mm munition with ranges more than 150 kilometers, and speaking about a unit price of 50 000 dollars for one. They are developing at the moment, they do not produce at the scale, and it might not materialize. But if it will, you can then buy 200 000 dollar cruise missiles which are produced in the United States by the millions trough this one new company who is planning to do this and sees a market in it, and wants to succeed in the American Dream, to become rich by selling millions of Cruise Missiles to customers who want to buy them. So when you make your defense procurements, you can choose. Do you buy one JASSM with 3 millions or 15 of these Cruise Missiles that cost 200 000 for one, from this one strange company, who can supply you by the millions when the JASSM production runs are on the thousands. Maybe a new Tesla or SpaceX of the Defense Industry, and a new Trillionaire in the making ? Supplying all of the world with their Cruise Missiles ? It would be the perfect American Story. You start with nothing, and end up as a Trillionaire because you saw the possibility and had a vision, when others did nothing. Ending up to be one of the biggest suppliers in the military market, toppling companies like RTX. They can do what i am talking about in the capitalist world too. Its not that only communists can produce at scale, or make a fortune on a market situation like China have.
Ukrainians are also doing this, but their expertize and what they market is drone capabilities. They are establishing a large amount of Startup companies, seeking funding and investment, and then establishing the production chains outside of Ukraine. They are most likely aiming to produce Drones by tens of millions. We can just sit back and watch, for example, how many Peklo or similar drones they produce after few years annually. They now have the option to establish their factories outside of Ukraine. Maybe they will in the end, produce one million long distance attack drones each year, and they will attack Russia with thousands of long distance attack drones each day ? So that there are explosions all over Russia every single day, and the damaged or destroyed buildings each day are in the hundreds or in the thousands. Maybe they start to attack your civilian industry so, that all of your factories, even your shoe factories or bicycle factories, are all damaged or destroyed within 3 000 kilometers of Ukraine ? All your shopping malls, retail stores, high rise buildings, everything. Maybe this is what they are building now, to attack you with 10 000 Peklo equilevants each day. They most likely would want to. This is what they are hallucinating, most likely. But will it become reality ? Isnt it interesting to see ? What are the Russians hallucinating ? And what about Iran ?
Why is China not doing this ? They fear the sanctions. They are not the ones who control capitalism, but still want to participate. They can only participate on the will of those who control the capitalism. If they do not play by their rules, they need to seek other alternatives and it so happens, that China likes Capitalism, and is starting to enjoy their position in it. They are the #2 in the capitalist world view after all.
I think you Russians should have an answer to these yourself. The reason why they are producing the drones can be, because they can order components from foreign suppliers quite cheaply, and then hire African people to assemble them. It takes less expertise because its lower tech level, and they are easier to produce for people with no expertized skills. The production lines are probably easier to assemble and you can buy component to them from Civilian Market. This is again on the purpose of keeping it as a "Special Military Operation" and not a real war. Would Russia declare an official all out war on Ukraine, or anyone else. The thing would most likely look different. Drones and Drone Components are acquired because there is already a Civilian Industry that produces them and the world at the moment is still at the stance, where the Civilian Industries are preferable. They do not want to produce more Military Industy, and if they can acquire dual use goods to be altered on military use they would rather do that. There is also the price point. Civilian Industries sell you cheaper than Military ones because they are more common, and a normal part of the economy. Military Industry is specialized, and commands this kind of premiums you mentioned in your post.
Ukraine is in the reins. They cannot do much without their capital masters telling them, and you know this. The things Ukraine "wants to do" and what they "are able to do" are very different. And then there is that the Russians are pummeling their own area so its quite hard to establish a large scale production there. They are probably doing a good job on what they can achieve, being thankful of the help they can get but because the Europe and United States are very afraid of Russia, especially their Nuclear Arsenal, so dont want a confrontation with Russia. Their thought process is guided by fear of Russia so they are driven to stances of appeasament instead of aggression. If we are to go hallucinating, take a time machine, and install Hitler as the dictator of all of Europe, and see what would happen. You would not like the outcome. No one would.
The Iranians probably sold many of their assets to Russia, and are now regretting the decision. If i am not mistaken, their representative is in Russia this very moment. Discussing about the subject.
I was wondering what happened for that Spaniard. I was reading this forum before i ever wrote in it and he seemed like a good guy. At least his heart was on the right place.
The fantasies and imagination of people are what makes things possible. You first need to have a vision, and then you can choose to act on it or not. The vision of European leaders is not a confrontation versus Russia, but they cannot leave Ukraine alone either. They dont want any wars, and are driven to bad situation when a country near them, who depends on them, and would be annihilated without them, asks for help. You would had to be a real monster, for not helping them and any person who have even a trace of humanity left would feel compassion for the Ukrainian people among their struggles versus the invading Russia. And among the European Union, there are many countries who know first hand the horror of Russia, and will never abandon Ukraine on their struggle. The Baltic states being the biggest supporters of defending Ukraine, being old Soviet States as well. They know what Russia do very well, and dont like them much for it. And are demanding that Ukraine will be helped. Places like Spain are actually quite neutral, and dont care that much. Which is good to see, that there is even one Spanish person who takes the struggle of Ukrainian people to their heart.
This is probably very off topic. As this thread is about Middle East. But i suppose it does relate to some extend.
And it is good to see that there is laughter in Russia. The laughter and smiles in the darkest of places, still to be found.
But as this thing escalates and i suppose it will. Those smiles in the Russian faces might dry up as well. Maybe a million Cruise Missiles donated to Ukraine would help in that ?
"What? Again, you cannot produce things out of thin air. You can decrease the cost of cruise missiles via scaling, though you would eventually run into scarcity of components, etc, but you cannot just produce them because you think you can. The entire argument is… well, dumb. "
Scarcity of components ? How come, if you are producing them by the millions ? Where is the scarcity then ? And yes. You can produce them only because you think you can. Because you can. What exactly is stopping you other than a mind set where you think you can not. There is this company in the capitalist world with this slogan "Just Do It".
This is from RTX. One of the biggest US military producers. Pathetic. Just absolutely pathetic. Peanuts, as they say.
The question is. Where does Ukraine even really need US as their supplier. When they cannot, or choose not to even produce at scale ?
The military industrial capacity of the US is so low at the moment, that you do not need them for anything, really. But they too, can scale it up if they so choose.
There things are being pierced, or what term you used in the US at the moment by private enterprises who are new startup companies. One of them is aiming to produce a cheap Cruise Missile concept, which sells at 200 000 dollars for one. And they aim to scale the production to the millions, and the US Defense Department is planning to purchase them. There is also this one other company, established by single individual, who are developing a 155mm munition with ranges more than 150 kilometers, and speaking about a unit price of 50 000 dollars for one. They are developing at the moment, they do not produce at the scale, and it might not materialize. But if it will, you can then buy 200 000 dollar cruise missiles which are produced in the United States by the millions trough this one new company who is planning to do this and sees a market in it, and wants to succeed in the American Dream, to become rich by selling millions of Cruise Missiles to customers who want to buy them. So when you make your defense procurements, you can choose. Do you buy one JASSM with 3 millions or 15 of these Cruise Missiles that cost 200 000 for one, from this one strange company, who can supply you by the millions when the JASSM production runs are on the thousands. Maybe a new Tesla or SpaceX of the Defense Industry, and a new Trillionaire in the making ? Supplying all of the world with their Cruise Missiles ? It would be the perfect American Story. You start with nothing, and end up as a Trillionaire because you saw the possibility and had a vision, when others did nothing. Ending up to be one of the biggest suppliers in the military market, toppling companies like RTX. They can do what i am talking about in the capitalist world too. Its not that only communists can produce at scale, or make a fortune on a market situation like China have.
Ukrainians are also doing this, but their expertize and what they market is drone capabilities. They are establishing a large amount of Startup companies, seeking funding and investment, and then establishing the production chains outside of Ukraine. They are most likely aiming to produce Drones by tens of millions. We can just sit back and watch, for example, how many Peklo or similar drones they produce after few years annually. They now have the option to establish their factories outside of Ukraine. Maybe they will in the end, produce one million long distance attack drones each year, and they will attack Russia with thousands of long distance attack drones each day ? So that there are explosions all over Russia every single day, and the damaged or destroyed buildings each day are in the hundreds or in the thousands. Maybe they start to attack your civilian industry so, that all of your factories, even your shoe factories or bicycle factories, are all damaged or destroyed within 3 000 kilometers of Ukraine ? All your shopping malls, retail stores, high rise buildings, everything. Maybe this is what they are building now, to attack you with 10 000 Peklo equilevants each day. They most likely would want to. This is what they are hallucinating, most likely. But will it become reality ? Isnt it interesting to see ? What are the Russians hallucinating ? And what about Iran ?
Why is China not doing this ? They fear the sanctions. They are not the ones who control capitalism, but still want to participate. They can only participate on the will of those who control the capitalism. If they do not play by their rules, they need to seek other alternatives and it so happens, that China likes Capitalism, and is starting to enjoy their position in it. They are the #2 in the capitalist world view after all.
- Production Targets: The goal is to quadruple Tomahawk production from around 60–100 per year up to 1,000 per year, alongside substantial increases for SM-6 interceptors (over 500 annually) and AMRAAM missiles (at least 1,900 annually)
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I'm probably going to regret this post.
Missiles cost what they do, because in peacetime they are not required in sufficient quantities to justify the investment to put them into real mass production. The cost of constructing the production facilities and operating them are greater than constructing missiles manually for current construction volumes.
Increase the demand and eventually production costs will decrease significantly.
I personally hope that we don't end up in a situation where that is required, because money will be the least of our problems.
Missiles cost what they do, because in peacetime they are not required in sufficient quantities to justify the investment to put them into real mass production. The cost of constructing the production facilities and operating them are greater than constructing missiles manually for current construction volumes.
Increase the demand and eventually production costs will decrease significantly.
I personally hope that we don't end up in a situation where that is required, because money will be the least of our problems.
Seriously though the people who come up with some of these concepts need to be checked for hallucinations too. In the civilian world we can do market research but in the military world Ukraine is used for testing or Afghanistan/Iraq before etc etc. if the man on the frontline is not asking for it then we should focus our precious peace dividend elsewhere.
rsemmes
Active Member
The agreements, lasting up to seven years, are intended to increase annual production and accelerate deliveries of Tomahawk Land Attack and Maritime Strike variants, AMRAAM missiles, SM-3 Block IB interceptors, SM-3 Block IIA interceptors, and the SM-6 missile.
Huge boost to US air defence and cruise missile production
Raytheon has signed five major framework agreements aimed at significantly expanding production capacity for key missile systems, including Tomahawk cruise missiles, AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, and multiple variants of the Standard Missile family.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk
That could be like 2 POTUS away, completely irrelevant to the present conflict. The situation then, and along the way, could be different, it is probably going to be and then they will go back to 200 per year; that can be spent in a couple of weeks. We are back to square one.
The US, killing people all over the world, is not at war, it is not in war production mood. Iran is at war, producing as many (best model) drones as it can, I guess, but it is not going to use them all in a couple of weeks either.
By the way, it says "intended", it is not reality.
What an odd claim where have you read this? The word "destroy" is of course nice and fungible, since an airbase isn't the jets, it's the runways, hangars, logistics support facilities, and control towers. Many of these things are relatively easy to repair. But leaving that aside, I don't think Russia's cruise missile inventory is anywhere that large. And it wouldn't make sense for it to be.
If it was as high as SamB claims, Ukraine would be a smoking hole in the ground.
I remember seeing reports early in the Ukraine war about how quickly they were burning through their stockpiles of modern missiles.
Russia definitely had a bigger stockpile than expected. And Russia has been able to boot up production to keep the effort going. But cruise missiles are a relatively expensive way to deliver payload. And NATO is huge.
It was a picture that I built up. After reading people like yourself, and others doing the blog post rounds as well as open source information. I don't expect the Kremlin comes out and makes public their battle plans. But any reasonable person would anticipate counter moves and keep powder dry in reserve.
I'm sure Russia has some reserves of munitions for a possible confrontation with someone other than Ukraine. But even if Russia has a couple of thousand cruise missiles in their back pocket (and I don't think they do), they don't have enough to destroy all airbases in NATO.
Or perhaps everyone was banking on the Kremlin emptying the bins in the first 48 hours. Munitions are not the issue; however, it is the assumptions behind them. Consider Libya and Iraq. One atrocity framed by amateurs, a single miscalculation turned a protest into a symbol and a symbol into a learning and counter cycle. Libya was small enough to be obscure. Iraq taught the world that the West is willing to use force against civilians. Libya simply confirmed it. So too did Georgia tell on Putin. The silence in the corridors, the admission of what had been done. Exercising power over the weak is a lesson that nations refuse to learn. Even when loyal officers and ambassadors obey, the damage is already done. There is another layer that few consider. But Iraq sat on cheap to extract oil as did Libya. They wanted to sell to Russia, so Sudam, Gaddafi and now two Iranian Ayatollahs have been eliminated. Yet every worker in the world, their trade managers, are all quiet. And when civilians are crushed at logistical hubs, the flow of trade does not stop, but the willingness to cooperate does. Dock workers take longer, freight managers take longer to file manifests, and local officials become less enthusiastic in their compliance. It's not enough to be called sabotage, but it is enough in millions of lost man-hours and trillions in additional government debt globally. It's the silence that has slowly spread. The world is full of heroes, villains, and fools; ultimately, their stories end up at the pub. There are no such tales of great or dastardly deeds being shared over a pint. When leadership acts without clarity, subordinates begin to question the chain of command. not openly and not in reports, but in their confidence. Nations cannot function if it doubts its officers above them, and Libya planted that doubt. The West's failures are not just a recruitment tool. More subtly, it is a wedge that separates officers from policy and silently makes them feel as if their respective nations are losing their way. Once officers believe they serve incompotence rather than order, they defect or worse, become apathetic.
There is one more tragic layer that the people remember in song and story and symbols when symbols become myth. Long after fleets have rusted and long after puppet governments are gone, and empires fall. Libya mattered because it revealed something that the West never intended to show. That its response to crises is predictable and predictability is the death of strategy.
rsemmes
Active Member
Oh!
We had to wait until Iraq to learn that?
I would say that is a lesson well learned and always applied.