JSF v EuroFighter in AA combat

[contedicavour]

Because like Iran, they wouldn't be able to find the parts to keep them running.: This is not USN vs the world. Many more countries and branches will be fielding JSF.

Hope you're right, but let's not forget the Iranian Air Force still operates 20 Tomcats with a few remaining AIM-54 Phoenix, 27 years after delivery... There are a lot of things petrodollars can buy

 

[Big-E]

Hope you're right, but let's not forget the Iranian Air Force still operates 20 Tomcats with a few remaining AIM-54 Phoenix, 27 years after delivery... There are a lot of things petrodollars can buy

I'll bet you 10 bucks that you won't see more than 2 fly. Thats all the parts they could smuggle, we've been busting the rings up pretty good. Iran never got to keep working AIM-54 Pheonix. It's reported that they might have there own version but I doubt it.

 

[Waylander]

I think that even an normally total superior fighter loses against its opponents if they have AWAACS or good ground radar support. It is such a plus if you are able to coordinate your fighters while they are in EMCON.

 

[chrisrobsoar]

I'll bet you 10 bucks that you won't see more than 2 fly. Thats all the parts they could smuggle, we've been busting the rings up pretty good. Iran never got AIM-54 Pheonix. It's reported that they might have there own version but I doubt it.

F-14 Tomcats for Iran

79 new-build aircraft were delivered before the Shah's downfall in the Iranian Revolution and his death from cancer not long afterward. The 80th Iranian Tomcat was retained stateside by the US Navy. 284 of the 714 Phoenix missiles on order were also delivered. These were simplified versions of the missile, lacking the electronic counter-countermeasures capabilities of their US Navy equivalents.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avtomcat.html


This book is worth reading Iranian F-14 Tomcats in Combat

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_452.shtml


This site shows an Iranian F-14 in flight with Phoenix missiles.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f14/f14_16.jpg


The Iranians have also developed the Hawk A to A Missile based on the Maverick A to G missile.

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iriaf_f-14a_3-6024_with_aim-54.jpg

Chris

 

[contedicavour]

F-14 Tomcats for Iran

79 new-build aircraft were delivered before the Shah's downfall in the Iranian Revolution and his death from cancer not long afterward. The 80th Iranian Tomcat was retained stateside by the US Navy. 284 of the 714 Phoenix missiles on order were also delivered. These were simplified versions of the missile, lacking the electronic counter-countermeasures capabilities of their US Navy equivalents.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avtomcat.html


This book is worth reading Iranian F-14 Tomcats in Combat

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_452.shtml


This site shows an Iranian F-14 in flight with Phoenix missiles.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f14/f14_16.jpg


The Iranians have also developed the Hawk A to A Missile based on the Maverick A to G missile.

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iriaf_f-14a_3-6024_with_aim-54.jpg

Chris

Wow thanks, this is interesting reading.
Although I am reassured to read that the "export" Phoenix have weak ECM capabilities, this proves the point that selling top jets to wrong countries carries huge consequences. There are enough MIG-29 and SU-27 around in hostile countries, let's hope the JSF doesn't end up in the wrong hands.
But if it does, then I want to be sure our Typhoons are up to the task of obliterating them from the sky real fast

cheers

 

[Big-E]

F-14 Tomcats for Iran

79 new-build aircraft were delivered before the Shah's downfall in the Iranian Revolution and his death from cancer not long afterward. The 80th Iranian Tomcat was retained stateside by the US Navy. 284 of the 714 Phoenix missiles on order were also delivered. These were simplified versions of the missile, lacking the electronic counter-countermeasures capabilities of their US Navy equivalents.

ummm, but you forget that "US technical personnel sabatoged the aircraft and weapons before they left the country following the coup, making it impossible to fire the missile." Thats why I said they don't have them from US because all the ones they gave were sabotaged. I should have said working AIM-54s LOL! I edited it accordingly.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Can the Joint Strike Fighter take the Euro-Fighter in Air-to-Air combat?

Yes almost in every case. Probably with greater than 10 to 1 exchange ratios. If its a 1 vs 1 DACT scenario the F-35 will almost without exception win. In 1 vs many the F-35 would still have dominant SA and win despite any numerical disadvantages because it could chose the conditions under which it would fight. As long as the F-35 doesnt squander its BVR advantages by closing to within WVR ranges where the Typhoon or just about any recent jet/WVR AAM combo could get a lucky shot.

An analogy to this question would be to have two Typhoons fighting each other and one doesnt have a working radar and the other does.

 

[oldsoak]

I'd wait until they go AtoA and see what the outcome is. Typhoon is far from a sitting duck.

 

[DarthAmerica]

I'd wait until they go AtoA and see what the outcome is. Typhoon is far from a sitting duck.

Against a fully RCS optimized true stealth fighter its just as much of a sitting duck as the Iraqi IAD during 1991 vs the F-117. When you compare the different levels of SA, the Typhoon by comparison is flying blind. And with CAPTOR as its primary BVR sensor, not only is it blind, but its painting a bullseye on itself anytime it tries to "see" due to the noisy unstealthy operating characteristics.

Now we can say that to be fair we should consider the Typhoon of the post 2010 timeframe when the F-35 is going to be in service. If we assume there are no significant delays with CAESAR, METEOR and AIM-120D. Which in the case of CAESAR and METEOR would be highly unlikely at this point but I digress. The Typhoons tremendous disadvantages are only partially offset. In fact the Typhoon will still be a bit less capable BVR platform than the F/A-18E is with an APG-79 all things considered but particularly the radar. The F-35 will still have at least a 4 to 5 times detection range advantage even when and if the Typhoon gets an AESA. Thats down from a 6 to 7 times detection range advantage. You also have to remember that not only does the F-35 signature reduction inhibit the capabilities of CAPTOR or CAESAR. But it also inhibits the active seeker on whatever BVR/WVR weapon the Typhoon tries to deploy because they are a lot less powerful and advanced than the fighters radar/IRST.

Bottom line is that the Typhoon would be playing into the F-35 strengths to engage it in a2a combat. If you had to fight a F-35 with a Typhoon it would be better to deploy SCALP, TAURUS or some other such stand off PGM to take out the F-35 and support infrastructure on the ground. But that may be beyond the scope of the original question.

 

[oldsoak]

The F35 is not F22 in terms of stealth - thats one of the reasons why the US was happy to export F35 and not the F22. Even then, the F35 the US gets will not be the F35 the ROW gets in sterms of stealth - there are things which will be US only. We know that because we've been told that. Which F35 are we baselining the Typhoon against ? The version the US is going to fly or the downgraded stuff ?
Another factor is that while stealth certainly helps keep one from being discovered, it does not help you find the enemy. You still have to locate him. That will involve switching on the radar eventually and that will alert him to your presence. If you both operate in radar silence, Typhoon may well have an edge over F35 with its IRST suite. Once he knows you're around, its going to be a case of can you get a firing solution before he does and will your AAM overcome his defensive ECM suite. Its not a foregone conclusion.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Agree to above. Thats the killer argument, i guess.

Maybe in some time, radar will be more or less substituted by infrared seekers?!

 

[Waylander]

Great, the F-35 is going to kill everything in an easy way.
Why does the USAF is buying the F-22 if the F-35 is the jet killer of the future?
For example the F-117 is round about five times more stealthy than the F-22.
And the F-35 is not going to be as stealthy as the F-22. Think about that.
Not to mention that the serbians managed to kill a F-117 by using some ground radars and an old MiG.
As said before it is more a competition between two AWAACs crews than a jet vs jet game.
And if there should really be a fight without AWAACs support how do you think the F-35 is going to find the EF and vice versa?
If they use radar both are going to be blinking in the sky and if both use their eyes and IR-sensors the EF going to play a hard game with its IRIS-T.

 

[Marc Aurel]

The UK is actually thinking about leaving the F35 program because the US does not want to share the technology, and its capabilitys don´t offer any superiority over given and prospected designs (mainly the EF i guess)

 

[DarthAmerica]

The F35 is not F22 in terms of stealth - thats one of the reasons why the US was happy to export F35 and not the F22. Even then, the F35 the US gets will not be the F35 the ROW gets in sterms of stealth - there are things which will be US only. We know that because we've been told that. Which F35 are we baselining the Typhoon against ? The version the US is going to fly or the downgraded stuff ?
Another factor is that while stealth certainly helps keep one from being discovered, it does not help you find the enemy. You still have to locate him. That will involve switching on the radar eventually and that will alert him to your presence. If you both operate in radar silence, Typhoon may well have an edge over F35 with its IRST suite. Once he knows you're around, its going to be a case of can you get a firing solution before he does and will your AAM overcome his defensive ECM suite. Its not a foregone conclusion.

This is an invalid arguement for several reasons. Primarily due to a misinterpretation of stealth principles. The difference between the F-22 and F-35 in terms of detection range for the CAPTOR is negligible in an operational sense. Second, the methods by which the F-35 is achieving its reduced RCS are more robust and more evolved than the way the F-22 does it. Also the F-35 is stealthy in the IR spectrum as well and itself has a passive detection suite that is superior to the IRST of the Typhoon. The AGP-81 is an LPI AESA set that could stealthily detect the Typhoon in active and passive modes. So the F-35 will be able to be stealthy while actively seeking out a non stealthy target. Their is no comparison. Like I said, look at the way this panned out for Iraqi IAD vs the F-117/TLAM.

And yes, stealth does help you find the enemy.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Great, the F-35 is going to kill everything in an easy way.
Why does the USAF is buying the F-22 if the F-35 is the jet killer of the future?
For example the F-117 is round about five times more stealthy than the F-22.
And the F-35 is not going to be as stealthy as the F-22. Think about that.
Not to mention that the serbians managed to kill a F-117 by using some ground radars and an old MiG.
As said before it is more a competition between two AWAACs crews than a jet vs jet game.
And if there should really be a fight without AWAACs support how do you think the F-35 is going to find the EF and vice versa?
If they use radar both are going to be blinking in the sky and if both use their eyes and IR-sensors the EF going to play a hard game with its IRIS-T.

OK you need to research the history of the F-117 incident a little more before posting IMHO. Second even if your suggestion was true, and believe me its not. It would be one F-117 lost out of several thousand combat sorties. Statistically meaningless in every way if you are measuring the effectiveness of stealth counter measures.

Then you need to consider the huge difference between the APG-81 and CAPTOR. You are talking about the most advanced fighter radar in the world vs early 1980's technology.

And finally, before commenting on how steathy a particular type is. Understand the the detection range vs RCS is a non linear equation and when you get to the point that US stealth aircraft are at in terms of signature reduction. Its almost meaningless to quibble over which RCS is this or that when your opponent is hundreds to thousands of times larger in terms of RCS.

Oh why is the F-22 and F-35 being purchased. Well, the F-22 was developed under a much different set of requirements and was initially a pure a2a fighter. The F-35 from the start was always going to be a multirole fighter and as such it exceeds the a2g performance of the F-22. The F-22 exceed the flight performance of the F-35 due to its purpose built a2a design. BUt both planes exceed all other platforms in both a2a and a2g missions in high threat environments.

 

[DarthAmerica]

The UK is actually thinking about leaving the F35 program because the US does not want to share the technology, and its capabilitys don´t offer any superiority over given and prospected designs (mainly the EF i guess)

Again another false and out of context statement. The UK is not thinking of leaving the F-35 because it doesnt offer any margin of superiority over a legacy fighter like the Typhoon. The UK wants access to certain US technologies that the US feels, and for good reason, would be security and economic risk to US interest without direct US control. The radar alone makes the F-35 a golden mile ahead of the Typhoon in terms of capability. This is why AESA equipped or capable F-15/16 have always been prefered over the Typhoon anytime they have been available for procurement.

 

[Waylander]

I won't try to use selling facts.
Selling military items is for
-political reasons
-political reasons
-political reasons
-military aid
-military aid
-budget
-budget
...
-capabilities

That EF radar is early 1980s tech is not true. Research began in the early '80s but while time goes by the tech is far more advanced than you might have dreamed of in the '80s. You could also say that the F-35 tech is from the time they started developing it.

What should I know about the F-117 incident? Some spooky sources gave the serbians the information in which region and at which time the F-117 operated and then they tracked it by using good placed ground radars and shot it down with a MiG.
That says something about the detection capabilities of a tight net of good ground radars working together with fighters against stealth fighters.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Maybe the 117 incident was just what happens often in any war and cannot, - by no means - be avoided.

It its called:

BAD LUCK!

:dance

 

[DarthAmerica]

-capabilities

That EF radar is early 1980s tech is not true. Research began in the early '80s but while time goes by the tech is far more advanced than you might have dreamed of in the '80s. You could also say that the F-35 tech is from the time they started developing it.

It is true. CAPTOR is a mechanical scan array developed in the 1980's in an era where the state of the art is in MESA/AESA arrays.

What should I know about the F-117 incident? Some spooky sources gave the serbians the information in which region and at which time the F-117 operated and then they tracked it by using good placed ground radars and shot it down with a MiG.
That says something about the detection capabilities of a tight net of good ground radars working together with fighters against stealth fighters.

First of all I would like to see some proof of a Mig shooting down an F-117. Second, what it says is if your OPSEC is compromised by enemy intelligence services and complacency then your tactics will not compliment your low RCS.

Stealth is the combination of technology and tactics. Not some magical cloak. I find your discription of the loss of the F-117 to be quite different from what I was told during OAF. THe ironic thing is though this is a moot point how the F-117 was lost in the context of this debate. I would gladly trade one airframe per conflict and out of thousands of sorties, especially if I can recover my pilot, for an almost assured victory.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Maybe the 117 incident was just what happens often in any war and cannot, - by no means - be avoided.

It its called:

BAD LUCK!

:dance

More likely BAD TACTICS/OPSEC. That can kill anything.