Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force Thread

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Long dead thread i know but after a search it appears to be the best place to ask this question: What is the logic behind a number of Japanese Destroyer Classes having a pair of LM2500 and a pair of RR SM1C GTs?

These main propulsion GTs are of similar outputs and I notice that current builds have either LM2500 or Spey instead of two of each as seen on the earlier ships. I can understand matching a smaller cruising GT to a larger one for high speed but why two types of the same class of GT?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Several people mentioned that skimmers were essentially just torpedo fodder and that helicopters are far more efficient sub hunters. Obviously this kind of supports the construction of this kind of warship but it has me wondering about the actual value of traditional ASW frigates.

Is their day done?

Should modern navies be looking more at mixes of ASW helicopter carriers, AntiAir destroyers and OPVs and forget about ASW frigates?

Also what is the crew size of this ship?

Wikipedia says 970 with troops ... but I was wondering what size crew would be required just to operate the ship and helicopters.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Several people mentioned that skimmers were essentially just torpedo fodder and that helicopters are far more efficient sub hunters. Obviously this kind of supports the construction of this kind of warship but it has me wondering about the actual value of traditional ASW frigates.

Is their day done?

Should modern navies be looking more at mixes of ASW helicopter carriers, AntiAir destroyers and OPVs and forget about ASW frigates?

Also what is the crew size of this ship?

Wikipedia says 970 with troops ... but I was wondering what size crew would be required just to operate the ship and helicopters.
I was under the impression - rightly or wrongly - that helicopters were most efficient at prosecuting enemy submarines, but that was predicated on them being found first. Again this is an impression unsupported by any data that I have, but I think that the traditional ASW frigate is a key player in the acquisition process. Interesting conversation.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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ASW rotary platforms need skimmers and vice versa

they don't operate in isolation
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ASW rotary platforms need skimmers and vice versa

they don't operate in isolation
A DDH (through deck JMSDF type) and an AWD combined with a number of ADs corvettes would make for a very capable escort or surface action group but you would still need ships capable of independent action, i.e. a high end frigate.

The only way I could see to do it would be to work out how many AWDs you could afford in addition to three DDH and a dozen corvettes and then determine if that leaves enough spare to conduct independent ops.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Japan's building ships the JMSDF calls destroyers, which some other navies might think of as high-end frigates. Look up the Akizuki class.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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A DDH (through deck JMSDF type) and an AWD combined with a number of ADs corvettes would make for a very capable escort or surface action group but you would still need ships capable of independent action, i.e. a high end frigate.
Its the permanent struggle of trying to get the best bang and capability for buck

thats why over the last few years there's been an increase in MRV type solutions (absalons, LCS, even Hyuga type)
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Its the permanent struggle of trying to get the best bang and capability for buck

thats why over the last few years there's been an increase in MRV type solutions (absalons, LCS, even Hyuga type)
When it comes down to it an AWD can stand in for a GP or ASW frigate but not the other way around so you could say an AWD is more multi role than a frigate. Perhaps a mix of Hyuga type, AWDs, Absalons and corvettes, say 3/5/5/10. I don't know if it would be affordable but it sure would be versatile.

Having more capability than you need much of the time is a better situation to be in than having a capability shortfall when you do need it.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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When it comes down to it an AWD can stand in for a GP or ASW frigate but not the other way around so you could say an AWD is more multi role than a frigate. Perhaps a mix of Hyuga type, AWDs, Absalons and corvettes, say 3/5/5/10. I don't know if it would be affordable but it sure would be versatile.

Having more capability than you need much of the time is a better situation to be in than having a capability shortfall when you do need it.
yep, if you're going to MRV the skimmer at least try and go for max bang for buck at the high end
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
When it comes down to it an AWD can stand in for a GP or ASW frigate but not the other way around so you could say an AWD is more multi role than a frigate. Perhaps a mix of Hyuga type, AWDs, Absalons and corvettes, say 3/5/5/10. I don't know if it would be affordable but it sure would be versatile.

Having more capability than you need much of the time is a better situation to be in than having a capability shortfall when you do need it.
I don't know whether the Absaloms add that much extra capability, particularly if you were to go with corvettes/OPV/LCS fitted with a variety of mission packs.

Really the Hyugas or more particularly the 33DDH helicopter carrier seem to pretty pretty much work like super sized Absaloms.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I don't know whether the Absaloms add that much extra capability, particularly if you were to go with corvettes/OPV/LCS fitted with a variety of mission packs.

Really the Hyugas or more particularly the 33DDH helicopter carrier seem to pretty pretty much work like super sized Absaloms.
Absalon, not Absalom.

Hyuuga is utterly different from Absalon. One's a multi-role ship, a combination of frigate & transport, with flexible armament & a flex deck which can carry an assortment of equipment or supplies. The other is a dedicated anti-submarine helicopter carrier, meant to lead an ASW flotilla, & armed & equipped solely & permanently for that role.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Absalon, not Absalom.

Hyuuga is utterly different from Absalon. One's a multi-role ship, a combination of frigate & transport, with flexible armament & a flex deck which can carry an assortment of equipment or supplies. The other is a dedicated anti-submarine helicopter carrier, meant to lead an ASW flotilla, & armed & equipped solely & permanently for that role.
The 22DDH can also carry 400 troops and 50 vehicles. It can carry 14 helicopters but only 7 will be for ASW. Its primary role will be ASW but it seems to have a lot of excess capability.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yup. If the published dimensions are correct, it's a bit bigger, marginally longer & marginally slimmer than Cavour.
 

Wall83

New Member
Yup. If the published dimensions are correct, it's a bit bigger, marginally longer & marginally slimmer than Cavour.
If they added fixed wings (F-35) to this project it would become relly something. Im fearing a military naval buildup in the region in the next decade. I presume that China soon will start constructing heavy carriers for its navy. And south Korea is also up there.
 

mankyle

Member
If they added fixed wings (F-35) to this project it would become relly something. Im fearing a military naval buildup in the region in the next decade. I presume that China soon will start constructing heavy carriers for its navy. And south Korea is also up there.
The situation we are living right now reminds me a lot of the naval build up period between WWI and WWII. IMHO, the question is not wether there will be a war in Asia, but when it will start.

And it will start in the South China sea, near the Spratlys and the Paracel reefs.
 

Wall83

New Member
The situation we are living right now reminds me a lot of the naval build up period between WWI and WWII. IMHO, the question is not wether there will be a war in Asia, but when it will start.

And it will start in the South China sea, near the Spratlys and the Paracel reefs.
I duobt anyone of the players are searching or wanting a war. Noone would winn anything from that. Im thinking it will continue like a new Cold war with defencebudgets growing larger and larger and the naval units will be more in numbers, greater in decplacement and more advanced.
China probobly will have carrier battlegrups in 5-10 years and Japan and other countries will follow suit.
 
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