Is Phalanx CIWS making a comeback?

davidcandy

New Member
Does anyone use Phalanx or similar to protect ground based air defence radars. It seems that it could be considered a ARM (antiradition missile) trap. Make the enemy shoot all their ARMs at a radar or decoy radar and shoot em down.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
davidcandy said:
Does anyone use Phalanx or similar to protect ground based air defence radars. It seems that it could be considered a ARM (antiradition missile) trap. Make the enemy shoot all their ARMs at a radar or decoy radar and shoot em down.
Why would you use a high cost close-in naval defense system to protect a cheap target like a radar station? There are better and cheaper ways to do this.
 

davidcandy

New Member
To attrit enemy stocks of ARMs and to maintain radar coveridge during a battle as the ARMs will be wasted on decoys and hopefully decoys will require many ARMs.

If you look at ground based air defence most countries in the world have very few assets. EG Australia has 30 manpads, Greece has 11 Crotale (and presumbably other types as well). A Soviet regement had more air defense than most countries.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
davidcandy said:
To attrit enemy stocks of ARMs and to maintain radar coveridge during a battle as the ARMs will be wasted on decoys and hopefully decoys will require many ARMs.

If you look at ground based air defence most countries in the world have very few assets. EG Australia has 30 manpads, Greece has 11 Crotale (and presumbably other types as well). A Soviet regement had more air defense than most countries.
Initially I thought it was a great idea, but then again, such a system could easily cost the same as 50+ ARMs.

It is also a concept that only has merit if you're in the recieving end of a sustained air campaign. Not a situation the militaries capable of fielding such a system would be planning on.

Cheers

:)
 

davidcandy

New Member
I realise it is a defensive thing. However countries like Iraq, Yugoslavia have lots I believe of ZSU-23-4 and ZSU-57s which may fulfill the same role as a phalanx.

Airpower advocates say airpower is and should be offensive. If so countries with small airforces shouldn't be using them for DCA but OCA (if not other purposes if sucessful OCA is impractible). And if air superiority is the goal then attacking every element of the enemies airpower may be the way to go. Attack airpower's reconisannce, C4, airfields, planes, and ammunition using electronic warfare, special forces, diplomacy, aircraft/ballistic missiles and GBAD.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
davidcandy said:
I realise it is a defensive thing. However countries like Iraq, Yugoslavia have lots I believe of ZSU-23-4 and ZSU-57s which may fulfill the same role as a phalanx.

Airpower advocates say airpower is and should be offensive. If so countries with small airforces shouldn't be using them for DCA but OCA (if not other purposes if sucessful OCA is impractible). And if air superiority is the goal then attacking every element of the enemies airpower may be the way to go. Attack airpower's reconisannce, C4, airfields, planes, and ammunition using electronic warfare, special forces, diplomacy, aircraft/ballistic missiles and GBAD.
Diplomacy:confused: How do you use this to attack an enemies airpower?:confused:
 

davidcandy

New Member
One can use diplomacy to cut an airforce's supply of spare parts and munitions. This is what happened in the Falklands war. The US chopped off the supply of satelite photos to Iraq in both wars. One can use diplomacy to alter the enemy's rules of engagement. In the Iraq - Iran war Iraq had to be really careful not to over do the war of the cities as the Soviets were on the brink of declaring an arms embargo towards the end of the war (and did cut supply at various stages of the war when Saddamm started executing Iraqi communists). Kuwait used diplomacy to get America to defend it's tankers (DCA).

In a war there are one side, it's allies, friendly neutrals, neutral neutrals, neutrals friendly to the enemy, the enemy's allies, and the enemy.

Another classic example is US basing. Gulf War 1 wouldn't have been at such a high tempo if the US only had carrier and CONUS airpower. US diplomacy secured airbases. Sanctions, based on diplomacy, stopped Iraq from reconstituting it's airpower between GW I and GW II.
 
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Big-E

Banned Member
davidcandy said:
One can use diplomacy to cut an airforce's supply of spare parts and munitions. This is what happened in the Falklands war. The US chopped off the supply of satelite photos to Iraq in both wars. One can use diplomacy to alter the enemy's rules of engagement. In the Iraq - Iran war Iraq had to be really careful not to over do the war of the cities as the Soviets were on the brink of declaring an arms embargo towards the end of the war (and did cut supply at various stages of the war when Saddamm started executing Iraqi communists). Kuwait used diplomacy to get America to defend it's tankers (DCA).

In a war there are one side, it's allies, friendly neutrals, neutral neutrals, neutrals friendly to the enemy, the enemy's allies, and the enemy.

Another classic example is US basing. Gulf War 1 wouldn't have been at such a high tempo if the US only had carrier and CONUS airpower. US diplomacy secured airbases. Sanctions, based on diplomacy, stopped Iraq from reconstituting it's airpower between GW I and GW II.
What does all this have to do with small countries using Phalanx to defend radar sites?
 

Big-E

Banned Member
davidcandy said:
Dunno but you asked the question I was answering.
I asked the question in regards to your airpower statement about phalanx.

davidcandy said:
I realise it is a defensive thing. However countries like Iraq, Yugoslavia have lots I believe of ZSU-23-4 and ZSU-57s which may fulfill the same role as a phalanx.

Airpower advocates say airpower is and should be offensive. If so countries with small airforces shouldn't be using them for DCA but OCA (if not other purposes if sucessful OCA is impractible). And if air superiority is the goal then attacking every element of the enemies airpower may be the way to go. Attack airpower's reconisannce, C4, airfields, planes, and ammunition using electronic warfare, special forces, diplomacy, aircraft/ballistic missiles and GBAD.
Ring any bells?
 

davidcandy

New Member
> Diplomacy How do you use this to attack an enemies airpower?
> By Big E

Firstly thank you for your consistant interest in Australian defence matters.

I was answering this specific comment of yours on how political factors, that I called diplomacy for short, can affect Airpower. I gave a few examples on how various nations have used diplomacy, propaganda, etc to affect the enemies use of Airpower.

To take GW2. Due to international political factors, not directly related to the Gulf War, Australian and British pilots had far tighter ROE. For the commonwealth powers to have acted as the Americians did would have been illegal. This is due to us deciding on adopting restrictive laws of armed conflict which the Americians haven't done to the same degree (additional protocols to Hague conventions for one).

It is said by a German philosopher that there is the people, the government, and the military which is related to the famous trinity of emotion, politics, and chance. Each of these groups can be influenced and each exists in the groups of participants (and neutrals are participants too).

In WW2 the americian people didn't want war, the Government did (I don't know what the military thought). Until Japan attacked AND Hitler declared war on America, the people's attitude kept America from being a ally (though they were a friendy neutral) in Europe. In the Pacific only Japan's attack mattered - Hitler was irrelevent.

My point is by influencing those three groups (people, govt, and military) in each of the nations (ally, friendly, etc) can influence the use of airpower (or any military power).

It was included in a list of strategies that sought to contest air superiority. It was not my main point. It was included for the sake of completeness.

My point is that small countries must take every effort to win or render irrelevent the air war. Small countries don't have much in numbers so every kill of a friendly is important. ARMs have the ability to kill or supress ground based radars. Weapons like ARMs are not that numerous. Making the enemy waste their stocks of ARMs means they may lose a relitive risk free way of supressing air defences - less risky than dropping iron bombs on SAMS.

My concept wasn't to protect radars with phalanx. But to use radars (if phalanx is effective at protecting) or radar decoys as bait to form ARM traps and attrit enemies munition stocks. As the missile gets destroyed the radar stays up forcing more shots.

The enemy may decide to abort strike packages rather than fly with a radar active. Then that gives one a mission kill as well.

I specified decoys as I believe that there is probably tactical countermeasures that could be taken, maybe fire two ARMs at once (or three or four). It would not be a magic bullet.

My overall point was it may be useful as part of a comprehensive strategy to defeat the enemy's airpower.

Assuming of course that it would work - which is what my orignal question was.

Some criticisms of the idea was based on resources. This is a valid point. But I had a sense it was from a viewpoint of a very large military. The US can afford to conduct large scale OCA AND continue DCA. If one can then that is what one would do. But that option was not available to Iraq for instance.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Very nice reply! ;)

davidcandy said:
Some criticisms of the idea was based on resources. This is a valid point. But I had a sense it was from a viewpoint of a very large military. The US can afford to conduct large scale OCA AND continue DCA. If one can then that is what one would do. But that option was not available to Iraq for instance.
Yes, I guess you're right that attriting a couple of hundred of ARMs would deplete all countries but the US of their inventory.

But then again, if you have small resources would it be a good use of resources? I think it would depend on the particular circumstances.

:)
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Grand Danois said:
Very nice reply! ;)



Yes, I guess you're right that attriting a couple of hundred of ARMs would deplete all countries but the US of their inventory.

But then again, if you have small resources would it be a good use of resources? I think it would depend on the particular circumstances.

:)
If you could get them to waste their ARMs on decoy radar sites would be nice but these sites would have to transmit the proper signal to simultate a real radar site. The price of a decoy and the real thing wouldn't be that much different. You might as well use your decoys as the real thing adding to your defense network. The best way to kill enemy ARMs is to shoot down the planes that carry them. Investing in long range SAMs would be a better choice. The assets used to protect the decoy radar sites would be better used protecting the real thing.
 

davidcandy

New Member
My understanding of indirect fire is the first salvo does the damage, subsequent salvos just miss people franticly digging their way to china with their bare hands. Which is why very modern arty uses TOT. Multiple shells from the same gun arriving at once.

One wonders how effective a phalanx would be compared to the detection and strobe alone.

OTOH it is important to Allied forces to minimise casualities to maintain the support of their own people. But how many casualities have motars caused in the bases where this phalanx will be deployed.

So one can see this as an effective tool for maintaning domestic political support. Some countries, such as Spain, left Iraq when pretty much nothing military significant had happened.

I think this is a military waste of resources. However it may be a smart move politically. I like the idea of the radar linked to strobe lights though. But if one has the cash to spend and cannot spend it on other things like soldiers (as the US and Australia have problems recuiting soldiers) one might as well spend it on this.

My concept of phalanx protected radars is indeed real radars but not the force's main radars. As the phalanx gets overwhelmed and the radar goes down switch to one's main radars and traditional ways of protecting them - moving, tranmitting part time, repairing, etc. Indeed a phalanx/radar skirmish line.

Long range SAMs are great. Most people can't afford them in numbers. And buying 6 launchers just makes them a target with great strategic effect or centre of gravity.

It really depends on the type of war, the campaign goals, what each force has, etc.

Our ANZACs need everything they can get. Kill one ship and one kills 9% of our naval power (or if it's the new LPD 16.6% of our Army). The government may fall if not a war of national survival. Look at how the Australian Government is screwing up over the loss of one soldier. They had three years to prepare for this day.
 
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