Indonesian Aero News
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Hercules plane explodes in ball of flames in Medan, Indonesia
TNI-AU C-130 crash into residential area minutes after take off from Medan AB in North Sumatra. The local media indentified the plane as A-1310 which if it's right is one of 2 KC-130B in Tni-AU inventory (which multi-role as tanker snd transport).
All C-130B belong to 32nd Sku in Malang. From what I gather from original 10 C-130B acquired in the 60's, 7 still in operational status (including 2 KC-130B). This plane from media report is conducting logistics operation, which did not specified if the plane conducting transportation logistics or tanker operation.
There are 3 sku of C-130 in TNI-AU, one in Halim AB in Jakarta (C-130H), one in Malang (C-130B), and new one in Makasar (for ex RAAF C-130H). Eventhough the B has already received upgraded programs, but those 60's aircraft already shown their age, thus TNI-AU in media already mentioned their plan to get additional budget for new Aircraft. Specualtion run from A-400M to C-130J, to replace those B's.
TNI-AU C-130 crash into residential area minutes after take off from Medan AB in North Sumatra. The local media indentified the plane as A-1310 which if it's right is one of 2 KC-130B in Tni-AU inventory (which multi-role as tanker snd transport).
All C-130B belong to 32nd Sku in Malang. From what I gather from original 10 C-130B acquired in the 60's, 7 still in operational status (including 2 KC-130B). This plane from media report is conducting logistics operation, which did not specified if the plane conducting transportation logistics or tanker operation.
There are 3 sku of C-130 in TNI-AU, one in Halim AB in Jakarta (C-130H), one in Malang (C-130B), and new one in Makasar (for ex RAAF C-130H). Eventhough the B has already received upgraded programs, but those 60's aircraft already shown their age, thus TNI-AU in media already mentioned their plan to get additional budget for new Aircraft. Specualtion run from A-400M to C-130J, to replace those B's.
Various Indonesian media report that the Indonesian Armed Forces is planning to allocate 9.3 trillion rupiah for the army, 17.4 trillion for the navy, and 93.9 trillion for the air force for their next long term strategic plan. This does not seem to be a typo and is an unprecedented shift in priority.
Indonesian Air Force is looking for bigger transport planes. No doubt the Hercules crash put some urgency into this, but this has been in the works for some years. The surprise is that the Air Force Chief of Staff said, in public, that the candidates are Airbus A400M and Antonov An-70. The A400M is no surprise, but the choice of An-70 instead of Il-76 and the omission of C-130J does surprise me.
EDIT: added sources in Indonesian. Use a software translator if necessary. One can still get the gist.
Got to go, later.
Indonesian Air Force is looking for bigger transport planes. No doubt the Hercules crash put some urgency into this, but this has been in the works for some years. The surprise is that the Air Force Chief of Staff said, in public, that the candidates are Airbus A400M and Antonov An-70. The A400M is no surprise, but the choice of An-70 instead of Il-76 and the omission of C-130J does surprise me.
EDIT: added sources in Indonesian. Use a software translator if necessary. One can still get the gist.
Got to go, later.
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I would say eliminating C-130J, IL-76 (and KC-390) makes sense for Indonesia.
The C130J makes little sense if larger capacity over the existing C130 fleet is the goal.
The KC-390 could be a good option in the future but it is too developmental right now.
Which leaves the IL-76. IL-76 is Russian, AN-70 is Ukrainian, which explains why it was eliminated.
It makes sense as Indonesia is moving towards the "Western" camp. The dominant formal Alliances of the SE Asia region are the 5 Powers Defence Act, ANZUS and US-Phillipines Mutual Defence Treaty. None of which involve Indonesia and some of which were specifically designed to stand against them.
Indonesia also faces the prospect of being forced to confront an assertive China on it's own. It is better for Indonesia's long term security to be surrounded by friends rather than potential enemies. A good defence relationship with the West offers far more than a similar relationship with Russia. Particularly as Russia becomes more dependant on China for its economic survival.
The C130J makes little sense if larger capacity over the existing C130 fleet is the goal.
The KC-390 could be a good option in the future but it is too developmental right now.
Which leaves the IL-76. IL-76 is Russian, AN-70 is Ukrainian, which explains why it was eliminated.
It makes sense as Indonesia is moving towards the "Western" camp. The dominant formal Alliances of the SE Asia region are the 5 Powers Defence Act, ANZUS and US-Phillipines Mutual Defence Treaty. None of which involve Indonesia and some of which were specifically designed to stand against them.
Indonesia also faces the prospect of being forced to confront an assertive China on it's own. It is better for Indonesia's long term security to be surrounded by friends rather than potential enemies. A good defence relationship with the West offers far more than a similar relationship with Russia. Particularly as Russia becomes more dependant on China for its economic survival.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
An-70 is a great aircraft in its class, but there were some development problems and until now no one has ordered this aeroplane yet. Maybe the Ukrainian Airforce has two of it, but thats also until now not really clear.
The Il-76 (Il-76MD-90A) is a great aircraft too, worldwide in use, also as an aerial refueling tanker. I dont know why its not on the list. I cant believe our government is becoming suddenly anti-Russian. I think its more because our airforce only want turboprops.
With a unit cost price exceeding €152.000.000 , the A400M is really expensive, ofcourse excluding spare engines, spareparts, GSE and other support. But if im not wrong Germany and Spain want to get rid of a part of their A400M orders, each country want to sell 13 aircrafts ive read on wiki. So maybe TNI-AU can get a dozen of this aeroplane, which is superior in almost everything compared to the C-130J, for a friendly price. I dont know if the first crash of an A400M which occurred on 9 May 2015 has an influence.
Brandnew C-130Js are expensive too, but ofcourse its more similar in operation and maintenance to the C-130B/H than any other one.
Second hand C130Hs are an option, but it seems this time the politicians and military want new ones.
The Il-76 (Il-76MD-90A) is a great aircraft too, worldwide in use, also as an aerial refueling tanker. I dont know why its not on the list. I cant believe our government is becoming suddenly anti-Russian. I think its more because our airforce only want turboprops.
With a unit cost price exceeding €152.000.000 , the A400M is really expensive, ofcourse excluding spare engines, spareparts, GSE and other support. But if im not wrong Germany and Spain want to get rid of a part of their A400M orders, each country want to sell 13 aircrafts ive read on wiki. So maybe TNI-AU can get a dozen of this aeroplane, which is superior in almost everything compared to the C-130J, for a friendly price. I dont know if the first crash of an A400M which occurred on 9 May 2015 has an influence.
Brandnew C-130Js are expensive too, but ofcourse its more similar in operation and maintenance to the C-130B/H than any other one.
Second hand C130Hs are an option, but it seems this time the politicians and military want new ones.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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- #706
AN-70 is dead end..nobody wants anything that still underdevelopment..and will not get anywhere with Rusia shunt it already. Ukraine too broke to further developed it.
C-17 also is no option either..the extra plane already nearly distributed..it's highly unlikely Boeing will postpone stoping the production line as planned, just to give Indonesia time to negotiate additional batch. So, unless USAF agree to divert some of their inventory to Indonesia (which is unlikrly considering the load C-17 got in USAF), then it's also dead end.
A-400M is the most probable option. This already been read few years back, when several high ranking Indonesisn brass keep continue meet with Airbus Military and see A-400M. With the long working history and current cooperation between DI and Airbus, it's most likely it will be the choice. C-17 or AN-70 being mentioned just to meet the procurement procedures which in Indonesian Government practices need to have options, and not just one choice.
C-130J cost will not differed much compared to A-400M, also the AF wants much bigger transport compared to C-130H. 2 sq of C-130H (current inventory plus ex RAAF) with up to 6-8 A-400M as the C-130B replacement is the more likely outcome.
C-17 also is no option either..the extra plane already nearly distributed..it's highly unlikely Boeing will postpone stoping the production line as planned, just to give Indonesia time to negotiate additional batch. So, unless USAF agree to divert some of their inventory to Indonesia (which is unlikrly considering the load C-17 got in USAF), then it's also dead end.
A-400M is the most probable option. This already been read few years back, when several high ranking Indonesisn brass keep continue meet with Airbus Military and see A-400M. With the long working history and current cooperation between DI and Airbus, it's most likely it will be the choice. C-17 or AN-70 being mentioned just to meet the procurement procedures which in Indonesian Government practices need to have options, and not just one choice.
C-130J cost will not differed much compared to A-400M, also the AF wants much bigger transport compared to C-130H. 2 sq of C-130H (current inventory plus ex RAAF) with up to 6-8 A-400M as the C-130B replacement is the more likely outcome.
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Haven't seen anything recently about the door/pressurization issue with the C-2 in over a year now. I think the KC-390 will be a strong competitor to the C-2 despite its lower cargo weight, assuming the Japanese really want to export the C-2.
Ananda
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- #709
Possible..as long as Japan already willing and ready to let C-2 to export market. However indication so far any military agreement on transport Aircraft with Japan indicated more to Shin Meiwa..then to C-2. Just as this last February articles indicated.
Indonesia to ink defense agreement with Japan | The Jakarta Post
The Indonesian Armed Forces, or at least, parts of them, have always wanted amphibious aircrafts. But this has always fizzled and I expect the Shin Maywa talk to fizzle again.
The main problem is that the Indonesian Armed Forces does not actually have a need for amphibious airplanes. Rather, a portion of them seems to seize any excuse to buy Russian. The Shin Maywa talk was actually started by a wish to buy Beriev Be-200, supposedly to combat illegal fishing. But this fizzled in January during the search for the wreckage of AirAsia QZ-8501. The Be-200 that Russia sent to assist in the search never made any amphibious landing due to rough seas. Rough seas being somewhat common in Indonesia, this kinda took the wind off Be-200's sail, so the talk went to Shin Maywa instead due to its ability to handle rougher sea states.
But Shin Maywa is not Russian, so the "buy Russian" folks quickly lost interest. Plus while the case for transport aircraft is real and the need is pressing, amphibious aircraft is one of those things that would be nice to have, but isn't actually critical in any way.
So I disagree with Ananda that the indications point to Shin Maywa. Note that in the aftermath of the recent Indonesian Air Force's C-130 crash, no one pushed the Shin Maywa as a possible replacement, even though the Shin Maywa's cargo capacity is roughly 18 tonnes, only slightly lower than C-130B's 20 tonnes. If they were serious about Shin Maywa, they could have tried to spin it as trading a slightly lower capacity for amphibious capability. But nope, they pushed for something else.
The main problem is that the Indonesian Armed Forces does not actually have a need for amphibious airplanes. Rather, a portion of them seems to seize any excuse to buy Russian. The Shin Maywa talk was actually started by a wish to buy Beriev Be-200, supposedly to combat illegal fishing. But this fizzled in January during the search for the wreckage of AirAsia QZ-8501. The Be-200 that Russia sent to assist in the search never made any amphibious landing due to rough seas. Rough seas being somewhat common in Indonesia, this kinda took the wind off Be-200's sail, so the talk went to Shin Maywa instead due to its ability to handle rougher sea states.
But Shin Maywa is not Russian, so the "buy Russian" folks quickly lost interest. Plus while the case for transport aircraft is real and the need is pressing, amphibious aircraft is one of those things that would be nice to have, but isn't actually critical in any way.
So I disagree with Ananda that the indications point to Shin Maywa. Note that in the aftermath of the recent Indonesian Air Force's C-130 crash, no one pushed the Shin Maywa as a possible replacement, even though the Shin Maywa's cargo capacity is roughly 18 tonnes, only slightly lower than C-130B's 20 tonnes. If they were serious about Shin Maywa, they could have tried to spin it as trading a slightly lower capacity for amphibious capability. But nope, they pushed for something else.
FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but you seem to be vastly misinterpreting capability numbers.
From data I can find the ShinMaywa US-2 has a useful load of something around 17,300kg for a water take-off, and 22,000kg for a land take-off. But, those numbers include fuel, a lot of fuel.
Compare that to the 33,000kg useful load of a C-130, with 20,000kg of that going toward cargo payload.
And, of course, there's the simple matter that the C-130 operated by the Indonesian Armed Forces (TNI) are cargo aircraft, and the US-2 most certainly is not.
Now, if the discussion was about replacing the TNI maritime patrol CN-235s that would be completely different.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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- #712
@tonnyc, I mentioned of ShinMeiwa in contects of Indonesian Military interest. In response to Swerve mentioned on C-2, I put in contects if any interest for Japanese 'transport' plane it will be ShinMeiwa rather than C-2.
However I agree with you that the interest for Amphibious airplane has been come and go within Indonesian Military establishment. But if it become materialised ShinMeiwa can be in better possition compared to Be200, due to performance issue.
Interest to Russian hardware come out from factions (military and political) that want to have alternative to Western origin. But even with this current administration that 'politically' have more inclination toward non-western powers, not much 'Russian or Chinese' armed contracts has been materialise.
Appart for 1 sq of Flankers, few missiles or Marines Amphibious Tanks..all other hardware in small armaments. Even the talked of SU-35 become increasingly fall in competitive range from what used to be near certain choice.
Herculles replacement talked now fall in area that the AF wants something much bigger than C-130B they want to replaced. C-130H is being keept, but much bigger replacement for C-130B why the reason the talked of ShinMeiwa not come out. Like I said previously the talked for An-70, C-17 and A-400M due to the 'much bigger' than C-130 assesment.
Again if budget neccesitise that aimed, then A-400M is still the likely candidate for C-130B replacement.
However I agree with you that the interest for Amphibious airplane has been come and go within Indonesian Military establishment. But if it become materialised ShinMeiwa can be in better possition compared to Be200, due to performance issue.
Interest to Russian hardware come out from factions (military and political) that want to have alternative to Western origin. But even with this current administration that 'politically' have more inclination toward non-western powers, not much 'Russian or Chinese' armed contracts has been materialise.
Appart for 1 sq of Flankers, few missiles or Marines Amphibious Tanks..all other hardware in small armaments. Even the talked of SU-35 become increasingly fall in competitive range from what used to be near certain choice.
Herculles replacement talked now fall in area that the AF wants something much bigger than C-130B they want to replaced. C-130H is being keept, but much bigger replacement for C-130B why the reason the talked of ShinMeiwa not come out. Like I said previously the talked for An-70, C-17 and A-400M due to the 'much bigger' than C-130 assesment.
Again if budget neccesitise that aimed, then A-400M is still the likely candidate for C-130B replacement.
Japan's just demonstrated the P-1 to a foreign air force (or naval air arm - they won't say), & has suggested it to the UK. I'm sure Japan's now willing to sell unarmed transports.
Amphibious aircraft were mentioned in the context of disaster relief, not military transport.
The C-2 is in the same payload class as the A400M.
I made the mistake of referencing Business Standard's article without double checking for a more complete data. Oops.
Using US-2 as maritime patrol aircraft makes more sense than using it as transport aircraft, as you pointed out, but at the same time there is no actual need for amphibious capability for maritime patrol aircrafts. Really, if anyone should buy either the US-2 or Be-200, it ought to be the Indonesian National Board for Disaster Management. Every year there are major forest fires and that's where both the US-2 and Be-200 would have been very useful.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Are there any real-world range numbers with varying cargo loads for the C-2? The Japanese MoD spec called for 3,000 nm (max load) which seems high compared to the A400M's 1780 nm with max load?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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- #716
LM Counter Offered ?
Lockheed Martin ready to provide RI with offsets for F-16V | The Jakarta Post
The LM delegates at last comes to Jakarta for F-16V..after others like SAAB, Eurofighter, Rafale, and Sukhoi. As just likr SAAB, LM also bring fullsize cockpit mokeup of their latest F-16V.
Many in media talked about the latest LM move as indication the deal for SU-35 as replacement for F-5 is not done deal yet..moreover this LM delegates comes before planned Jokowi visit to US to meet Obama..
I my self still see that the real deal is not just for F-5 replacement..but further down for additional sq plan..and 2 sq of Hawk 200 replacement..TNI-AU chief him self already mentioned newer version of Flankers and F-16 is more preferable..considering TNI-AU already familiarisation with both types..
Well will see when this will moved to anything..
Lockheed Martin ready to provide RI with offsets for F-16V | The Jakarta Post
The LM delegates at last comes to Jakarta for F-16V..after others like SAAB, Eurofighter, Rafale, and Sukhoi. As just likr SAAB, LM also bring fullsize cockpit mokeup of their latest F-16V.
Many in media talked about the latest LM move as indication the deal for SU-35 as replacement for F-5 is not done deal yet..moreover this LM delegates comes before planned Jokowi visit to US to meet Obama..
I my self still see that the real deal is not just for F-5 replacement..but further down for additional sq plan..and 2 sq of Hawk 200 replacement..TNI-AU chief him self already mentioned newer version of Flankers and F-16 is more preferable..considering TNI-AU already familiarisation with both types..
Well will see when this will moved to anything..
Nice to see you after so long Ananda!
What is the status with Indonesian turboprops? Looks like:
16 KT-1s + 2 more on order
8 EMB 314 Super Tucanos + 8 more on order
10 Grob G 120TP + 8 more on order
among transport:
17 Lockheed C-130 Hercules
Three different skews of turboprop for light/attack and training. Don't get it.
Similar skew proliferation regarding helos. Including the five Eurocopter EC725 still on order.
Not Ananda, but many of the questions are answered in various internet articles, so I'll try to answer too.
For transport you will see C-212, CN-235, and C-295 plus various legacy ones like old Fokkers. If you look back in the thread there's talk about getting A-400M or something in that class.
On trainers, the Grob and KT-1 forms the first and second layer of pilot training. The Grob replaces that T-34 Mentor, the KT-1 replaces the AS-202 Bravo. The Super Tucano is strictly a close air support and counter-insurgence aircraft. It replaces the OV-10 Bronco.
It can be argued that the proposed attack version of KT-1 can fill the CAS&COIN roles, but the Indonesian Armed Forces apparently disagree. Vice versa, a stripped down version of Super Tucano can be used as trainers in lieu of KT-1, but again, the Indonesian Armed Forces thinks the KT-1 is adequate (and likely cheaper). From where I sit it seems pretty straightforward.
On helicopters: I don't know enough, so I will pass.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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- #719
Add on tonnyc comment:
Those 3 type turboprops are for different set of training curiculum (Grob and KT-1), and for COIN/CAS specifications (Super Tucano).
Can KT-1 being wired for COIN ? Perhaps with some adjustment it can, but it is not what their role in TNI-AU. So 3 types with different kind of roles, seems still in line.
For C-130, TNI-AU still in line for 3 sq: 2 existing, with one for C-130B in Malang AB(being upgraded to H specs), and another for C-130H in Jakarta AB. 1 new sq in Makasar AB for ex RAAF C-130H.
There are talked on larger class of Transport (Presumably replacing the C-130B), of possible C-130J, A-400M, even talked for IL-76. Then again is still talked..nothing definite yet.
Those 3 type turboprops are for different set of training curiculum (Grob and KT-1), and for COIN/CAS specifications (Super Tucano).
Can KT-1 being wired for COIN ? Perhaps with some adjustment it can, but it is not what their role in TNI-AU. So 3 types with different kind of roles, seems still in line.
For C-130, TNI-AU still in line for 3 sq: 2 existing, with one for C-130B in Malang AB(being upgraded to H specs), and another for C-130H in Jakarta AB. 1 new sq in Makasar AB for ex RAAF C-130H.
There are talked on larger class of Transport (Presumably replacing the C-130B), of possible C-130J, A-400M, even talked for IL-76. Then again is still talked..nothing definite yet.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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- #720
N219
Photo credit to Yuhusa Setyo Instagram.
Photo of N219 prototype. This is the first DI/IAe aircraft that really build and design by Indonesian engineers without assistance from foreign consultants or Partners.
Despite Habibie negative comments on the aircraft, saying this is a set back for DI, but this actually a more solid ground based development for DI. This is the real step to build aircraft independently and based on more realistic calculation on business prospects and DI 's own resources.
Habibie Called N219 Aircraft 'A Toy' Â* | National | Tempo.Co :: Indonesian News Portal
Photo credit to Yuhusa Setyo Instagram.
Photo of N219 prototype. This is the first DI/IAe aircraft that really build and design by Indonesian engineers without assistance from foreign consultants or Partners.
Despite Habibie negative comments on the aircraft, saying this is a set back for DI, but this actually a more solid ground based development for DI. This is the real step to build aircraft independently and based on more realistic calculation on business prospects and DI 's own resources.
Habibie Called N219 Aircraft 'A Toy' Â* | National | Tempo.Co :: Indonesian News Portal