Indonesian Aero News

[John Fedup]

Indonesia’s PTDI Considers Chinese Assembly Plant After Securing Sales | Aviation Week Network

PT Dirgantara Indonesia is considering setting up a final assembly line in China after agreeing on sales of 25 N219 turboprop aircraft to the country.

aviationweek.com

Follow on the marketing partnership deal on N219, DI also looking to pursue assembly plant in China Xinjiang teritory. Funny thing that DI predecessor also try this strategy for their regional jet project N2130 for North America market. Let's see how this goes.

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The N2130 project was which more ambitious than the N219 and I assume the N219’s market really isn’t for NA. Considering the fate the C-Series, N2130 likely wouldn’t have found another big partner that could penetrate the NA market.

 

[Ananda]

This is more on similarities on the strategies. Just like chances of N2130 penetrate NA market, chances of N219 to penetrate China market also depends on whose partner they can get.

So far, the partners they are choosing is also not big aviation player in China. So still wait to be seem how this is going to develop. Personally I do have big doubt on the strategy, just like when DI predecessor IPTN planning on opening assembly facilities in US for NA penetration.

 

[Ananda]

Menkeu Jelaskan Alasan Anggaran Belanja Alutsista dari Pinjaman Naik

Menkeu Sri Mulyani menuturkan, peningkatan anggaran belanja itu disebabkan karena kondisi alutsista Indonesia serta potensi ancaman yang ada.

nasional.kompas.com

Basically this is just confirmation from MoF that the credit line being prepared for this term overseas defense items procurement (International Credit Line) is USD 25 bio. As being point out before, Indonesian defense procurement even from Soekarno era in the 60's conducting through credit line. Credit line it self can be from overseas financial institutions (thus international credit line) and domestic financial institutions (thus domestic credit line). With multi years approaches, finance people like this methods as more calculable for multi years projections.

The article basically stated that yesterday, Jokowi administration already agree to increase the line for this term from USD 20.75 bio to USD 25 bio. Base on contracts that already effective it is only make around less than half of credit line approve. This includes two batches of Rafales and Initial batch of A400M. This is also indicating the current administration going to fasten activation of some overdue contracts.

Put in here, as being expected most of overdue contracts asside going to Frigates and Submarines, also for third batches of Rafales, also potentially options for more A400M. Some defense insiders (aka salespeople) talk about the credit contracts that's being overviews actually around USD 34-35 bio. Talking to finance people colleagues, seems confirmed that around USD 10 bio credit line will be carry over to next administration to be decided by them.

Just hope that F-15EX contract will be carry over to next administration. Which then going to be decided later on. As in Indonesia means, going to be assessed from beginning again. This time around, personally better ditch the US or Russian Fighters, and stick with Frenchie ones. This is not talk on defense needs but more political preferences.

Off course it is going to rattle some pro US and pro Russian camps, but like it or not Frenchie can be more neutral suppliers to meet Indonesian preference on external policies. Buy US transports and helicopters, ditch fighters. Frenchie stuffs will be more expensive to run, but then again considering Indonesian possition so far, seems it is more confiniences from all political factions.

Getting Turkish assets can also be attractive alternative politically, but considering Indonesia preferences on using credit line rather then other approve method by law (ie Trade Exchange schemes and Cash payments), it is still questions which overseas institution willing to finance Turkish defense exports. Other Euro suppliers can take that Turkish contracts if no solution can be found on credit line issue. Could be Italian? Who knows. However I have doubt if it is UK or Germany.

So I suspect Frenchie could come out as big winner in here. This means could be more contracts for Dasault, Thales, Airbus Military, MBDA, or even NG. Not all of them pure Frenchie, but Frenchie have significant influence there. Seems Frenchie sources also shown that confidence on their market chances in India and Indonesia. Both more or less have similar external politics preference and domestics ones in defence procurement.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1729519047014818054

Well that's just my amateur assessment anyways. All this more on politics trends and not on defense preferences and logistics.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It seems that today the TNI-AU got 8 new EC725 helicopters and one new EC725 simulator on the same day. And that is unique, because normally we only get 1-2 new aircrafts at the same time.

Indeed an early Sinterklaas gift.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1730436216443854860

Btw if i am not wrong there were 9 EC725 helicopters on order. Was the first one already delivered or has one more to come?

Minister hands over eight Airbus H225M helicopters to Air Force

Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto handed over eight Airbus H225M helicopters with heavy payload capacity, originally named Eurocopter EC725 Caracal, to the ...

en.antaranews.com

And this is the fourth new C-130J-30 for TNI-AU.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1730008151926116445

 

[Ananda]

if i am not wrong there were 9 EC725 helicopters on order. Was the first one already delivered or has one more to come?

The order for EC 725 is for 6, contract at SBY era deliver on Jokowi first term (2016-17). Then Jokowi's first term MinDef in 2019 order second batch of Caracal consist of 8. This time Airbus Military already change the nomenclature of caracal from EC725 to H225M.

Present term MinDef seems going to order 31 helicopters, but now for Army. Those Caracal is for AF. As why they can deliver 8 altogether, rumours talk the helicopters actually already arrive partially some months ago. However DI then take some time doing finalisation and equipment-weapons integrations. This is why they seems can deliver 8 at one time.

Basically from what I can gather, this Caracal replacing Classic Puma that come in 70's and early 80's. While TNI-AU will still maintain Super Puma that come in late 80's and early 90's. As much hype it is (well it is election campaign time), this is actually replacement program and not added capacities. Unless the added capacities more on transition from Puma to Caracal.

 

[Ananda]

Kasau: Rafale pertama akan ditempatkan di Skadron Udara 12, berikutnya di Skadron Udara 1 dan Skadron Udara 16

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) - Kepala Staf Angkatan Udara (Kasau) Marsekal TNI Fadjar Prasetyo mengatakan, kelompok pertama jet

www.airspace-review.com

TNI-AU Chief stated through Airspace Review that:

1. All Rafale (42 of them) will make 3 sq.
2. The first and second Rafale sq, will gradually replace all Hawk 100/200. This is an answer why BAE offer to upgrade those Hawk not getting traction.
3. F-16 sq in Pekanbaru will be filled by third Rafale sq. Thus all F-16 then will be consolidate in to two sq in Madiun AB.

This is also in line with French sources that saying Indonesia will execute third batch of Rafale contract, thus fulfill all 42 contract procurement.

So far this means also no new sq establishment, thus the 2nd F-16 sq will be definite F-5 replacement, and all Hawk will be replace by Rafale.

No additional news on the interim fighters (Mirage 2k), and seems so far indicate F-15 procurement will be decide by next administration. This also means the plan for additional 3 new sq also seems not going to be decide by present administration.

Thus the ORBAT of TNI-AU fighters will still be 8 sq of: 2 F-16 sq, 3 Rafale Sq, 1 Super Tucano (COIN) sq, 1 TA-50 (LIFT/LCA) sq and 1 Su-27/30 sq. All they have done is replacing 2 Hawk 200/100 sq and 1 F-5E/F sq.

Kasau: Jet tempur F-15EX bisa ditempatkan di Makassar atau di Madiun, bila kita pesan sekarang maka pesawat datang tahun 2028

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) - Selain berencana mengakuisisi 42 jet tempur Rafale dari Prancis (kontrak efektif untuk 24 unit sudah

www.airspace-review.com

The second article again indicating the F-15 will not be decided in near term, despite US already agree in principle to supply 36 F-15. This indicating current administration doesn't have fiscal room to negotiate finishing the contract in their term.

Seems the plan for additional TNI-AU sq will be F-15, if new administration agree on finalising the procurement. The article also talk that Flankers will be in time replace by F-15. Thus confirm speculation so far.

If all goes as plan, then basically TNI-AU fleet will be consists of F-16, Rafale and F-15. Rafale then act as diversity from US assets that before plan with Flankers including Su-35. This shown how French being used as Russian alternative.

 

[Ananda]

Picture of new NC-212i that have new propeler. This is from Indonesian Tweeter Enthusiasts. It is claim to be MTV-27 propeler.

PTDI Rilis NC212i dengan Propeller Baru, Membuat Pesawat Lebih Senyap

PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) mengirim pesawat ke-5 dari 9 pesawat NC212i pesanan Kementerian Pertahanan untuk penggunaan TNI Angkatan Udara.

tekno.tempo.co

Follow on to that trial, yesterday DI officially hand over the 5th TNI-AU NC-212i that are already fitted with MTV-27 propeller. The article also stated the propeller will be retrofitted to previous four NC-212i. This seems it will be standard config for all 9 of present batch of TNI-AU NC-212i order.

Seems DI can also offer this retrofitting to other NC-212i customers like Thai and Philippines. So far according to DI, new propeller config work well with the engine and improve the noise and vibration.

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Add video from DI FB pages on that new propeller config for NC-212i.

 

[StingrayOZ]

If all goes as plan, then basically TNI-AU fleet will be consists of F-16, Rafale and F-15. Rafale then act as diversity from US assets that before plan with Flankers including Su-35. This shown how French being used as Russian alternative.

I think it makes sense to use the French as an alternative to Russians. Russian supply of parts and upgrades have always been limited, and Russia coming under sanctions isn't exactly a new thing. France while being western, are notoriously of different opinion on a range of issues, and realistically, aren't coming under global sanctions and have a much more reliable parts and upgrade pipelines. Its going to be easier to mix and match a fleet of French and US weapons and platforms than US and Russian.

So looks like the KF-21 is definitely not in the Indonesian air force mix?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Kasau: Rafale pertama akan ditempatkan di Skadron Udara 12, berikutnya di Skadron Udara 1 dan Skadron Udara 16

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) - Kepala Staf Angkatan Udara (Kasau) Marsekal TNI Fadjar Prasetyo mengatakan, kelompok pertama jet

www.airspace-review.com

TNI-AU Chief stated through Airspace Review that:

1. All Rafale (42 of them) will make 3 sq.
2. The first and second Rafale sq, will gradually replace all Hawk 100/200. This is an answer why BAE offer to upgrade those Hawk not getting traction.
3. F-16 sq in Pekanbaru will be filled by third Rafale sq. Thus all F-16 then will be consolidate in to two sq in Madiun AB.

This is also in line with French sources that saying Indonesia will execute third batch of Rafale contract, thus fulfill all 42 contract procurement.

So far this means also no new sq establishment, thus the 2nd F-16 sq will be definite F-5 replacement, and all Hawk will be replace by Rafale.

No additional news on the interim fighters (Mirage 2k), and seems so far indicate F-15 procurement will be decide by next administration. This also means the plan for additional 3 new sq also seems not going to be decide by present administration.

Thus the ORBAT of TNI-AU fighters will still be 8 sq of: 2 F-16 sq, 3 Rafale Sq, 1 Super Tucano (COIN) sq, 1 TA-50 (LIFT/LCA) sq and 1 Su-27/30 sq. All they have done is replacing 2 Hawk 200/100 sq and 1 F-5E/F sq.

Kasau: Jet tempur F-15EX bisa ditempatkan di Makassar atau di Madiun, bila kita pesan sekarang maka pesawat datang tahun 2028

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) - Selain berencana mengakuisisi 42 jet tempur Rafale dari Prancis (kontrak efektif untuk 24 unit sudah

www.airspace-review.com

The second article again indicating the F-15 will not be decided in near term, despite US already agree in principle to supply 36 F-15. This indicating current administration doesn't have fiscal room to negotiate finishing the contract in their term.

Seems the plan for additional TNI-AU sq will be F-15, if new administration agree on finalising the procurement. The article also talk that Flankers will be in time replace by F-15. Thus confirm speculation so far.

If all goes as plan, then basically TNI-AU fleet will be consists of F-16, Rafale and F-15. Rafale then act as diversity from US assets that before plan with Flankers including Su-35. This shown how French being used as Russian alternative.

So from which i understand, this means that SkU.14 at last get aeroplanes after being a decade a fighterless fightersquadron. That also means that SkU 16 will get the F-16s replaced with 14 Rafales, with the result that Pekanbaru will become an airbase with two Rafale squadrons (SkU 12 and 16).

Better keeping the same amount of operational fighter squadrons with decent fighterjets, than having a lot of squadrons but with each of them equipped with a handful of worn out obsolete trash or jettrainers in FFBNW-configuration.

PTDI Rilis NC212i dengan Propeller Baru, Membuat Pesawat Lebih Senyap

PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) mengirim pesawat ke-5 dari 9 pesawat NC212i pesanan Kementerian Pertahanan untuk penggunaan TNI Angkatan Udara.

tekno.tempo.co

Follow on to that trial, yesterday DI officially hand over the 5th TNI-AU NC-212i that are already fitted with MTV-27 propeller. The article also stated the propeller will be retrofitted to previous four NC-212i. This seems it will be standard config for all 9 of present batch of TNI-AU NC-212i order.

Seems DI can also offer this retrofitting to other NC-212i customers like Thai and Philippines. So far according to DI, new propeller config work well with the engine and improve the noise and vibration.

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See posts, photos and more on Facebook.

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Add video from DI FB pages on that new propeller config for NC-212i.

So with this IPTN has fulfilled the order of 9 NC212i's, right?

Well, as it is political decision, seems present administration will send the decision to new administration after the election. Officially Indonesia is still with the program. However even TNI-AU chief is not willing to speculate on KF-21 decision, cause it is very political choices has become.

What's so far indicating no allocation of budget officially being prepared to pay overdue payments. If I'm ROK official, how this is going to be seen where your Partner confinue delaying payments, but make more expensive procurement with other parties? As I and other Indonesian members say before, Indonesian participation in KFX program so far has not shown reliability as Partner.

In my opinion it is better to not take those expensive F-15EXs and continue with the KF-X. So somewhere in the next decade we can equip those planned additional fightersquadrons with them.

 

[Ananda]

looks like the KF-21 is definitely not in the Indonesian air force mix?

Well, as it is political decision, seems present administration will send the decision to new administration after the election. Officially Indonesia is still with the program. However even TNI-AU chief is not willing to speculate on KF-21 decision, cause it is very political choices has become.

What's so far indicating no allocation of budget officially being prepared to pay overdue payments. If I'm ROK official, how this is going to be seen where your Partner confinue delaying payments, but make more expensive procurement with other parties? As I and other Indonesian members say before, Indonesian participation in KFX program so far has not shown reliability as Partner.

 

[Ananda]

from which i understand, this means that SkU.14 at last get aeroplanes after being a decade a fighterless fightersquadron.

Yes F-16 seems officially becoming F-5 replacement. Pekanbaru will have 2 Rafale Sq as Madiun will have 2 F-16 sq. So far seems plan to refurbished those F-16 to V standard already got budget allocations. Indicating F-16 unlike Hawk and Flankers will be maintain for longer period.

Add:
On NC-212i order, this hand over only for 5th from all 9 order. However they are planning to retrofit the first four with MTV propeller also. It is can also be concluded the 6th to 9th will have this config also.

France while being western, are notoriously of different opinion on a range of issues, and realistically, aren't coming under global sanctions and have a much more reliable parts and upgrade pipelines

Yes, this is seems part of reasoning why Frenchie being accepted as Russian alternatives for non US supplies. Some in MinDef also try to get Turkiye as other alternatives, but seems so far MoF find difficulties getting acceptable offer from big Financial Institutions (FI) on financing credit line for Turkiye export.

CAATSA is one of problem on continuing with Russian procurement, but from what I understand it is finding FI that want to finance credit line is more determine factors for any procurement from any suppliers. Pro Russian Faction still try to get Russian procurement, but finding no FI willing to finance that, make them more or less silence now.

 

[Ananda]

my opinion it is better to not take those expensive F-15EXs and continue with the KF-X.

Personally I have been ranting for sometime how F-15EX/ID is unaffordable for effective operations. Unless they (MinDef) can at least double or to be safe tripple TNI operational budget. This is not only for operations Rafale + F-15ID, but also those larger Frigates and Submarines. Off course the multi years budget now being prepared not only for Procurement and Sustainment. However how about day to day operations, including emergency allocation?

So yes KF-21 is actually more fitting then F-15ID for Indonesia, not only in term of operation budget and procurement budget. Also in term of chances to configure the electronic and sensors set up as Indonesian control. This is off course if Indonesia invest on IFX version as what plan to be.

However considering questionable investment Indonesia willing to commit on the IFX (Indonesian version), procurement for KF-21 or IF-21 will turn out not much different then sourcing to other producers. Off course it will be different if Indonesia commit all the way in IF-21 program, as being plan during SBY era.

Indonesia have ambition to become more independent on electronics and sensors software access. Something that India drive for on their made in India policy. Different is India willing to put substantially much more money on their MIC then Indonesia did.

At this point around it is better for Indonesia to deal with Frenchie on Rafale access. It is simply because they (MinDef) already invest much on this type. Thus better maximise what can be get with Frenchie on the industrial co-op. The ToT agreement with Frenchie not only in MRO, but potentially also in avionics and sensors. Thus better try to deal more and maximize on that.

So for me it is better they ditch F-15EX/ID not for KF-21 but for more Rafale. Not because Frenchie is better partner then US or ROK, or Dassault are providing better Industrial access then Boeing or KAI. More simply is because when you already invest much on one type, better try to get as much as potential from that Investment.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian Aero News

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0ueGcAep5qMPj2z1Vt4xPW5ayztQE6HZBTMzBhTXXjtXg2YeifsSc7m1CQ9hCi7wnl&id=100064801353844 Frenchie really shown effort to market all the package. From all types in this Pegase Task Force, Indonesia already commit for Rafale and A400M. Only A330...

www.defencetalk.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732289469787869685

MinDef announce last Friday (1st Dec), there're series of agreements being sign between DI and LM and watch by MinDef offcials. This include New Sales Helicoper Agreement (NSHA) and Industrial Cooperation Agreement (ICA) for 24 S-70M Blackhawk and building finalization depo in DI for final integration.

With this, basically LM-Sikorsky provide similar agreements that DI has with Bell for 412. Airbus have more advance agreements for longer time, as not only final depo, but also parts manufacturing for H225M.

Seems as many suspected, MinDef after green light for additional financing budget from MoF, now fasten finalisation on some contracts. Naturally it is coincides with campaign seasons. For this S-70M they move quite fast, as only in August they just sign MoU on the deal. Usually it take at least a year or more from MoU to contract.

 

[koxinga]

Given that the Philippines is the other large S-70i (PZL built) operator in ASEAN, would PT DI be able to perform MRO for those birds?

 

[Ananda]

The detail of ICA not available to media yet, however considering DI develop MRO capabilities on Bell 412 and Airbus Helicopters on gradual steps, similar thing I suspect happen here.

Unlike with Bell and Airbus Helicopters, DI and Sikorsky is in new co-op situation. Even with all 24 S-70M deliver, it's population in Indonesian market still much less then Bell and Airbus Helicopters. Population size ussualy matter for one company to develop their own MRO capabilities.

I suspect even if the ICA enables DI to do some MRO job, the scope will still less then what DI MRO capabilities with Bell 412 and Airbus Helicopters at present contract stage.

 

[Meriv90]

Any updates on the rumor that we got some month ago about EAU wanting to buy the Indonesian stake of the KF-21?

 

[Ananda]

South Korea Denies Rumors of UAE Joining KF-21 Development Program

SEOUL --- The Defense Acquisition Program Administration said on the 18th that reports that the government is likely to join hands with the United Arab...

www.defense-aerospace.com

Korean Official so far denies UAE intention to join KF-21 Boromae program.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732645003300577685

Already seen this since yesterday, but only got time to put it today. Previous term MinDef actually already begin lease contract for satellite in 2015. However the deal being hold due to corruption charges and contract iregulatities.

Jokowi's first term MinDef can basically say as failures, and with many irregularities, that even considered 'obvious' even by Indonesian bureaucracy standard. Let's if how far the second term can rectified defemse planning mess that their predecessor left them.

 

[Ananda]

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DI CEO talk in Batam on the continuation for N219 and N219 Amphibious, in which the later will have first test schedule by August next year. Let's see how this progressing, as N219 is basically a test for Indonesian Administration commitment on reviving Aero Industry.

Don't have big dream, step by step progress is already good enough. Considering DI historical performance and more importantly Indonesian administration historical back up (especially after Soeharto fall).

 

[Ananda]

Perencanaan Pertahanan & Usulan Pembatalan Belanja Alutsista

Memperhatikan secara seksama pola perencanaan pengadaan yang dibiayai oleh PLN, terdapat indikasi kuat bahwa proses perencanaan di Kemhan kurang matang.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

I remember few years back a couple Indonesian members talk how I should hear more from defense insiders then 'finance' people. Well the problem is most defense insiders in Indonesian forums and media mostly are sales 'people'. As the Twitter Guy that wrote this article. Turn out whatever those defense 'insiders' wrote in their blog, forums, vlog or articles, won't mean anything until the 'finance' people say it can be 'financed'.

Now the tweeter guy can 'bitching' on his article above on how the defense planners mess up or not have firm enough planning, when they decided which projects need to be cuts. Need to be cuts as the Foreign Credit allocation that finance people aka MoF agreed upon reduce from USD 34 bio to USD 25 bio on this term (as I have put the link in this thread before). That's really shown his sales man mentality. They are going to cuts some projects, as just like any project management base on priorities. Nothing else, and his bitching on proper defense planning nothing more on his displeasure as some of his projects can face cuts.

That's why from time to time in all Indonesian forums I always say, follow the money trails. Money trails can only certain if the contract being effective. If it is only still in study, or MoU or even already in Plan, will not going to be certaint, until the contract initial payment being effective. If the contract had been signed but no initial payment come out, then it is not yet effective.

I already mentioned that Indonesia since Soekarno time always use Credit Line for large defense procurement. This is being follow by Soeharto and all administrations after him. Thus any budget that being agreed upon, then also need to be negotiate by MoF with potential FI that's going to meet MoF terms for financing. So MinDef decide which projects, then MoF has to negotiate with FI on financing term. After that all parties meet and satisfied, then the contracts can proceed for effective commercial engagement.

This's afterall commercial agreement, and still when I read other Indonesian threads on other forums or online media, I can't help think so many 'idiots' defence enthusiasts, or even so call columnist that continue too thick to understand this basic principle on any commercial deals.

So what Twitter guy bitching is because he either too thick to understand or understand enough but still try to build public opinion to avoid undesirable (for his project) decision making. When realities of budget come out, any planner then goes to plan B or C in order to prioritise what they believe it is more important.

The political situations in Indonesia make any projects ussualy going to prioritize the procurement of platform and basic support, while the rest will follow. This is always why any defense assets ussualy goes with FFBNW concept and the weapons and ammo going to be procure on next term defense iterations. Because Indonesian bureaucracy and politicians need to shown the platform first.

Rafale and F-15ID as both packages is simply can not be afforded if MinDef also want to procure other big assets like Frigates and Submarines. Thus something must give, as I have mentioned from time to time. It is not too hard to understand as this is part of budget realities. Both platforms going to be too expensive to procure along with other big items. Somehow the local media and enthusiasts don't want to face realities and keep dreaming.

Whether those projects that'll be drop, still can be procure, again in Indonesia depends more on Politics then defense planners. Thus means what being cut now, can still make new procurement plann in next administration term. If they are still in same book of appetite. That's mean even Prabowo win next elections, doesn't automatically means the present plan will continue as it is now, or new plan will not come out. Afterall in Indonesia anything can happen depends on political negotiations.