India's P-17 (stealthy multi-role surface combatant)
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Superficially it may look so, but the superstructure amidships is definitely not a Krivak.
The front quarter section at first glance looks like a Krivak as well, but it is not.
The comms layout is also more french than russian in design.
The new vessels are also some 20% larger. Its very difficult to extrapolate and upscale a warship. To try and upscale a Krivak (which is quite a well balanced design) would give a naval architect a few headaches.
Indian warship desiign is actually a combination of English, Russian and French philosophies - they are 3 distinct architectural philosophies. Prev warships were heavily modelled on the heavy loadout philosophy of the Soviets, they tried to apply a similar concept to their modified Leanders and ended up with vessels that were unstable and unbalanced in aggressive sea states,
In my view, this design has distinct french influences - it may have a superficial resemblance to a Krivak, but I strongly doubt that its the prime influence.
(look at the superstructure, mid section hull, comms layout)
The front quarter section at first glance looks like a Krivak as well, but it is not.
The comms layout is also more french than russian in design.
The new vessels are also some 20% larger. Its very difficult to extrapolate and upscale a warship. To try and upscale a Krivak (which is quite a well balanced design) would give a naval architect a few headaches.
Indian warship desiign is actually a combination of English, Russian and French philosophies - they are 3 distinct architectural philosophies. Prev warships were heavily modelled on the heavy loadout philosophy of the Soviets, they tried to apply a similar concept to their modified Leanders and ended up with vessels that were unstable and unbalanced in aggressive sea states,
In my view, this design has distinct french influences - it may have a superficial resemblance to a Krivak, but I strongly doubt that its the prime influence.
(look at the superstructure, mid section hull, comms layout)
Well, the general layout bridge and forward is almost the same as on the Talwar class. The smaller caliber gun is used and the SAM launcher has been elevated, leaving more space below decks. There is a VLu for Club-N. The number of RBU-6000 has been doubles.
Further after, the torpedoe tubes have been moved forward to about midship. Radar (Top Plate) and fire control equipment (4x Orekh, 1x 5P10) are generally comparable, it located in different spots. The rear end is similar to the layout of Delhi and Godavarie class with twin instead of single hgelicopter hangars. Compared to Talwar, the 2 Kashtan's have been move forward and up a bit. The domed search radar nomally associate with Kashtan has been deleted. Instead there is a large 3D radar to augment Top Plate at long ranges.
I suspect most important differences to Talwar are below decks, in propulsion and combat system areas. More stealthy, more capable. Nice looking vessel!
Further after, the torpedoe tubes have been moved forward to about midship. Radar (Top Plate) and fire control equipment (4x Orekh, 1x 5P10) are generally comparable, it located in different spots. The rear end is similar to the layout of Delhi and Godavarie class with twin instead of single hgelicopter hangars. Compared to Talwar, the 2 Kashtan's have been move forward and up a bit. The domed search radar nomally associate with Kashtan has been deleted. Instead there is a large 3D radar to augment Top Plate at long ranges.
I suspect most important differences to Talwar are below decks, in propulsion and combat system areas. More stealthy, more capable. Nice looking vessel!
It's a well balanced design. And you're right, I'd be curious to see what its like underneath.
The design is certainly better than prev generations. The older russian designs tended to go for max weaps on a given footprint - and that made for some really ungainly designs and I would guess a somewhat suspect seastate handling ability.
Its interesting when you compare this with the latest chinese stealth frigs.
The design is certainly better than prev generations. The older russian designs tended to go for max weaps on a given footprint - and that made for some really ungainly designs and I would guess a somewhat suspect seastate handling ability.
Its interesting when you compare this with the latest chinese stealth frigs.
As is, when operational, I would rate the Project 17 as superior to the new chinese Type 054 frigate and an equal to the Type 052B destroyer (P17 has greater ASW emphasis, one more helicopter, less medium range but greater short range SAM capability, fewer but more deadly SSM, smaller caliber but more rapidly firing main gun)
A future P17 might mount 3 Sylver 8-cell VLu's with Aster 15 and 2-3 Russian 8-cell VLu's for members of the KLub-N family or for Brahmos SSM/LACM. Thus equipped, and with the Aster associated multifunction radar, the P17 would in my view be similar in design to the projected Type 054A and possibly outclass it in performance.
Such a modified P17 would outclass the current Type 052B but not the 052C AAW destroyer. For that, the P17 would need to be equipped with 5 8-cell Sylver Vlu's with long range Aster-30 and associated multifunction radars, as well as 1 8-cell Russian VLu with SSM of the Klub-N family or Brahmos.
A future P17 might mount 3 Sylver 8-cell VLu's with Aster 15 and 2-3 Russian 8-cell VLu's for members of the KLub-N family or for Brahmos SSM/LACM. Thus equipped, and with the Aster associated multifunction radar, the P17 would in my view be similar in design to the projected Type 054A and possibly outclass it in performance.
Such a modified P17 would outclass the current Type 052B but not the 052C AAW destroyer. For that, the P17 would need to be equipped with 5 8-cell Sylver Vlu's with long range Aster-30 and associated multifunction radars, as well as 1 8-cell Russian VLu with SSM of the Klub-N family or Brahmos.
to make it 052c competitive you then have to make platform decisions - there is an issue of "real estate" and weapons bunkerage to consider.tatra said:
If the tasking disconnect is too "great" then you end up with platform inconsistencies.
The melding of russian, french and indian EW/COMINT/SIGINT/FCS systems could be a porting/programming nightmare.
Some comments by the patrons of this forum are driven by patriotism, rather than science. This class out classes that class...gf0012 said:
IN's approach to buy diversity of paltforms from suppliers of opportunity look great in Janes, but I am quite aware of their integration nightmares, so I second you gary. Great opportunities for consultancy
Tatra, the patriotic references were not levelled at you. I actually commend you on a considered series of balanced responses.tatra said:
The discussions that have transpired are on generalities. Integrating disparate systems is a nightmare - and when you integrate indigenous, french, russian and israeli systems as part of a joint solution - it will be a headache.
Nobody has said its impossible - it just obviously not easy. If offence was taken it was very unintended.
INS Talwar, commanded by Captain Satish Soni, will berth at Potsmouth
INS Talwar has an extensive suite of Indian and Russian sensors, including the indigenous HUMSA sonar and communication suite CCS Mk-II made by Bharat Electronics. The ship will operate the state-of-the-art KA-31 helicopters for airborne early warning.
The ship's weapon suite includes vertically launched long-range surface-to-surface missiles (CLUB-N), 100 mm gun (A 190), long-range
Surface-to-air missiles (SHTIL), advanced torpedo launchers (DTA 53), anti-submarine rocket launchers (RBU 6000) and anti-missile defence system (KASHTAN), amongst others.
Its main features are high weapon sensor density, enhanced stealth features and extended reach.
Well ... this is the frist ship which is desigened with Indian specifications.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jul/02navy.htm
Somewhere i read that , this is was delayed due to purpose as sited reason due to failure of SAM , but real intension is enhance its ASW to counter Pak subs. Now it can detect and target Subs even before it comeinto its missiles or tarpedoes range.
INS Talwar has an extensive suite of Indian and Russian sensors, including the indigenous HUMSA sonar and communication suite CCS Mk-II made by Bharat Electronics. The ship will operate the state-of-the-art KA-31 helicopters for airborne early warning.
The ship's weapon suite includes vertically launched long-range surface-to-surface missiles (CLUB-N), 100 mm gun (A 190), long-range
Surface-to-air missiles (SHTIL), advanced torpedo launchers (DTA 53), anti-submarine rocket launchers (RBU 6000) and anti-missile defence system (KASHTAN), amongst others.
Its main features are high weapon sensor density, enhanced stealth features and extended reach.
Well ... this is the frist ship which is desigened with Indian specifications.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jul/02navy.htm
Somewhere i read that , this is was delayed due to purpose as sited reason due to failure of SAM , but real intension is enhance its ASW to counter Pak subs. Now it can detect and target Subs even before it comeinto its missiles or tarpedoes range.
Tatra, well, thats a good example of "low observability"
Yeah, it's amazing that you can't see most of the superstructure. Wonder how they do that. Probably LO paint scheme and a bunch of lamps. :rollgf0012 said:Tatra, well, thats a good example of "low observability"
But seriously, that image dates to mid-way last year so Shivalik should have progressed considerably since then.
I would also be thankful for any images showing the Israeli Barak missile installation and its associated ELTA firecontrol radar installed on INS Delhi. Still trying to figure out how many VLU's (single or twin) and rounds were fitted (if twin: 2x6 or 2x8), in what configuration (read something about a rotary launcher) and where on the ship (in lieu of AK630 or not).