Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Then the spaniards have a budget of 700 million EUR per boat. Still considerable less then the estimated Indian budget.

Even including costs for development and infrastructure it looks mighty expensive.

The British Astutes will roughly cost 900 million pound including development costs.
 

dragonfire

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  • #662
Then the spaniards have a budget of 700 million EUR per boat. Still considerable less then the estimated Indian budget.

Even including costs for development and infrastructure it looks mighty expensive.

The British Astutes will roughly cost 900 million pound including development costs.
The cost comparison between the the Astute class and the budget for the new Indian D/E submarine seem at par in terms of projected cost, however it is not a good comparison considering the Indian submarine is conventional whereas the Astute class is nuclear powered.

It can only be hoped that in investment in infrastructure (if any) would serve to support production beyond the 6 being planned thereby decreasing the overall cost over period of time via economies of scale IN does need a lot of boats.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Despite ties with Finmeccanica, Oto Melara has been shortlisted by the Indian MOD to supply 127mm naval guns to the Indian Navy. BAE did not respond to the tender.

Oto Melara To Supply Indian Naval Gun

The deal calls for 2 guns to be supplied by Oto Melara and the remaining 11 to be manufactured by state owned company Bharat Heavy Electrical Ltd following a full transfer of technology.
 

AegisFC

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
BAE didn't respond because:

A) They aren't stupid.
B) The US State Department probably would never agree to such an idiotic deal.
C) This stupidity is what is dragging out the MMRCA deal.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
13 guns eh? Bloody hell...what a set of conditions...

I'm sure there was some clause similar to the Rafale deal, where the prime contractor was going to be held responsible for the performance of the domestic supplier on this gun deal as well.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Oto Melara is said to have bid only because it already has a good relationship with BHEL, which is assembling Oto 76mm guns under licence since 1995. Oto therefore thought it could trust BHEL to (1) do the job right & (2) not screw Oto Melara.

That would, of course, not apply to any other firm. HAL, for example, has thrown some Dassault & BAE staff out of its factories.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
India asks Japan to offer their Soryu design for the Indian Navy's Project 75I submarine tender asking for 6 boats built in house with land attack capability.

India asks Japan to offer Soryu subs for Project 75I requirement - IHS Jane's 360

The current conventional inventory of the IN is 9 Russian boats, 4 German boats, 6 French Scorpenes are on their way and now Japanese boats are wanted to be thrown into the mix as well.

The usual players are also involved in the tender - DCNS/Navantia/HDW.

Bets on if Japan gets involved?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
India asks Japan to offer their Soryu design for the Indian Navy's Project 75I submarine tender asking for 6 boats built in house with land attack capability.

India asks Japan to offer Soryu subs for Project 75I requirement - IHS Jane's 360

The current conventional inventory of the IN is 9 Russian boats, 4 German boats, 6 French Scorpenes are on their way and now Japanese boats are wanted to be thrown into the mix as well.

The usual players are also involved in the tender - DCNS/Navantia/HDW.

Bets on if Japan gets involved?
I don't think Japan would be willing to put up with all the Indian procurement BS. Why India needs yet another sub design is bizarre considering the cost of supporting all these designs. Are they not also working on their own nuclear design as well?
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't think Japan would be willing to put up with all the Indian procurement BS. Why India needs yet another sub design is bizarre considering the cost of supporting all these designs. Are they not also working on their own nuclear design as well?
I thought they were looking at an indigenous design, however their capabilities to produce a design successfully, along with mitigating the risk and other factors that could lead to a "Tejas of the seas", do not inspire much confidence in me personally. I found the comment about buying Soryus to be a bit strange too, and I doubt Japan will want anything to do with the situation if the Indians take a hard line, as they have in the past, on transfer of technology...

Your mileage may vary but that's how I see it, anyway.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Indian procurement is a mess, but it might be argued that a Soryu purchase makes sense, to provide a submarine with longer range & endurance than their other conventional types.

That argument goes out of the window if one assumes they're going to get a fleet of SSNs, but given the success rate of indigenous Indian developments, it could be sensible insurance.

Or it might be just incoherent procurement. Sometimes, Indian military procurement is so crazy that if you made it up, noone would believe you. For example, I remember the offer of ex-RN Sea Harriers, which was turned down on the grounds that they were offered without AIM-120 & their Blue Vixen radars. The Indians claimed that they were useless without radars & missiles - despite: -
They knew that AIM-120 needed US approval to sell, & if granted, India could buy it direct, so they didn't need any from UK stocks.
India had already signed a contract with Israel to upgrade its existing Sea Harrier fleet with EL/M-2032 radars & equip them with Derby missiles, & that contract could easily have been extended to cover extra aircraft. This would have been preferable logistically & operationally to a fleet of 20 or so aircraft with two different radars & two BVR missile types.

The only explanation I can see for the failure to buy the ex-FAA SHARs is pure incompetence - unless it was because the MoD doesn't pay bribes.
 

AegisFC

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The failed SHAR purchase was very odd for the reasons you mentioned, but Indian procurement does not seem to care about complicating logistics and training.
Were the SHARS part of the buyout by the USMC?

That argument goes out of the window if one assumes they're going to get a fleet of SSNs, but given the success rate of indigenous Indian developments, it could be sensible insurance.
It is bizarre though. They will have in service together a mix of home grown, French, German, Russian and if this deal goes through (very unlikely) Japanese submarines.
The logistical and training pipeline would be expensive.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I believe the SHAR 2 fleet is still in the UK and didn't go as part of the USMC transfer - I *think* they're at RAF Culdrose for ground training - they spin them up, taxi them, get folk used to handling aircraft in loud and noisy conditions in cramped spaces ready for deck work on carriers where getting it wrong is more than a minor mishap.

They were probably too far from the configuration the USMC wanted or alternatively the UK wanted to retain some ground training aids.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Their procurement process does seem chaotic and random across all services at the moment, but hey on the flip side they are amassing a staggering amount of tech transfer into the country !!

Maybe not so silly afterall ?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well I think many countries have issues with their public servants.

Getting back to procurement. India seems to have as a policy to acquire two platforms from each role (one from each super power) then establish a local build program.

I think its very inefficient but they have access to both sides technologies and performance. I think they value that more than anything else. That and not being limited by one of the super powers.

The indigenous programs seemed to have some moderate success. In some areas they are probably better off continuing developing indigenous programs that have been pretty successful.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well I am thinking more of the classes of Shivalik class or projects like BrahMohs given the navy theme of this thread, although those two examples as well. So its not impossible to have a fairly normal and successful Indian defense project.

They just seem to be very rare. And they are isolated.
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
On the other hand, the Indian Space program has been very successful. Clearly there is no shortage of the smarts or will, it's complex organizational/cultural factors, make someone a good MBA to study the successors & failures within the Indian context.

I suspect it would prove that stuff ups in military procurement is truly a cross cultural phenomena.
 

dragonfire

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  • #680
Perhaps the cost includes the development of infrastructure at shipyards to enable the construction these boats. The next step in the action plan is to review shipyards in the country in the next 6 to 8 weeks and prepare and submit a report basis which a RFP will be issued to a specific shipyard. However i still think the budgeting is high, though the RFP and the negotiation for the same will define the final price.
Narendra Modi government shortlists Larsen & Toubro, Pipavav for Rs 60,000 crore submarine contract

According to highly-placed sources, a high-level committee headed by vice-admiral Subhedar, which had inspected both public and private shipyards to shortlist candidates to issue the request for qualification (RFQ) for Project 75i, in its final presentation to the ministry of defence (MoD) last week, selected the two private sector shipyards — L&T’s Katupalli yard and Pipavav unit.

Narendra Modi government shortlists Larsen & Toubro, Pipavav for Rs 60,000 crore submarine contract | The Financial Express
The shipyards have been identified and shortlisted for the production of 6 conventional submarines with AIP, for the Indian Navy. The game now begins on which submarine will be shortlisted. The contenders are French DCNS ‘Scorpene’, Russia’s Rubin Amur 1650, the German HDW Type 214, Spain’s Navantia S-80 and the Swedish Kockums Archer-class. Game On :)
 
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