Independent Scotland coastguard

[Keith.K.Muir]

I'm inviting opinions

For Scotland as small and independent nation to have a separate navy and airforce I think is frankly ludicrous far better to have a combined arms green water force that can carry out all the functions of maritime patrol and control over the skies of Scotland under one command. I would envision the force as a Gendarmerie in peacetime (primarily policing) and it would transition to a conflict force in wartime.

I appreciate this may be hypothetical for some but recent polls have Scottish independence at 54% people have had it with the union

 

[John Fedup]

From a Canadian perspective, same “stuff” different location. The costs of going it alone are enormous and like in Canada, playing nice after separation won’t happen, too many pi$$ed off stake-holders. This would be especially true wrt to the significant kit and personnel required for any kind of decent sovereignty enforcement. The passions behind independence are significant but when the costs become due, the passions will fade.

 

[ngatimozart]

I'm inviting opinions

For Scotland as small and independent nation to have a separate navy and airforce I think is frankly ludicrous far better to have a combined arms green water
force that can carry out all the functions of maritime patrol and control over the skies of Scotland under one command. I would envision the force as a Gendarmerie in peacetime(primarily policing) and it would transition to a conflict force in wartime.

I appreciate this may be hypothetical for some but recent polls have Scottish independence at 54% people have had it with the union

G'day Keith and welcome to the forum. Please take the time to read the rules. We are not really that keen on what if scenarios and politics are forbidden here unless they directly relate to defence.

However in answer to your question. First of all you would have to get another independence referendum, and Westminster have firmly squashed that idea for the time being and the foreseeable future. However if it did happen and there result was for independence then many factors would come into play. The first and important one would be the Scottish economy and what it would look like. For example, the English would more than likely move their shipbuilding south of the border. Faslane sub base would also move. They would not easily relinquish the North Sea hydrocarbon royalties. Scotland would have to apply to the EU for membership and that's not guaranteed.

You might look to the Irish Republic for a possible template. It works for them. However you would probably require missile armed corvettes and some form of airborne maritime surveillance to protect your North Sea oil and gas infrastructure. Which brings me to another point, do you want to join NATO? Acceptance isn't guaranteed either and you required to spend 2% GDP on defence annually. The RN, RAF and British Army will pull all of their assets south of the border, and Scottish inheritance of any of them may non negotiable. That's something that else you have to think about.

Finally, the Scottish government has to decide what it wants it's defence forces for - what are the reasons for standing them up. So it has to formulate a defence policy then set the parameters within which the Scottish Defence Forces will operate. A Concept Of Operations (CONOPS) will have to be devised etc.

 

[Keith.K.Muir]

G'day Keith and welcome to the forum. Please take the time to read the rules. We are not really that keen on what if scenarios and politics are forbidden here unless they directly relate to defence.

However in answer to your question. First of all you would have to get another independence referendum, and Westminster have firmly squashed that idea for the time being and the foreseeable future. However if it did happen and there result was for independence then many factors would come into play. The first and important one would be the Scottish economy and what it would look like. For example, the English would more than likely move their shipbuilding south of the border. Faslane sub base would also move. They would not easily relinquish the North Sea hydrocarbon royalties. Scotland would have to apply to the EU for membership and that's not guaranteed.

You might look to the Irish Republic for a possible template. It works for them. However you would probably require missile armed corvettes and some form of airborne maritime surveillance to protect your North Sea oil and gas infrastructure. Which brings me to another point, do you want to join NATO? Acceptance isn't guaranteed either and you required to spend 2% GDP on defence annually. The RN, RAF and British Army will pull all of their assets south of the border, and Scottish inheritance of any of them may non negotiable. That's something that else you have to think about.

Finally, the Scottish government has to decide what it wants it's defence forces for - what are the reasons for standing them up. So it has to formulate a defence policy then set the parameters within which the Scottish Defence Forces will operate. A Concept Of Operations (CONOPS) will have to be devised etc.

I appreciate your reply and do take in your point about not being political but please forgive me your reply ironically spent most of its time doing exactly that. I'm looking for opinions on how to stand up a coastguard not on how to be independent. So please reply again with further thoughts on how to stand up a green water force and what its dimensions would be in terms of maritime patrol etc for a small country.

 

[Redlands18]

I appreciate your reply and do take in your point about not being political but please forgive me your reply ironically spent most of its time doing exactly that. I'm looking for opinions on how to stand up a coastguard not on how to be independent. So please reply again with further thoughts on how to stand up a green water force and what its dimensions would be in terms of maritime patrol etc for a small country.

Well if you went with a Scottish CG only in this scenario you would have a solid core of experience with ex RN and RFA members who are Scottish and could be induced into joining a CG, So personal are probably not going to be a major problem, you should have a solid core right through the ranks.

 

[OPSSG]

Thread paused, pending Mod Team discussion as it is a pure hypothetical scenario in a Navy and Maritime Forum.

 

[Preceptor]

Thread temporarily re-opened at the request of a member in order to provide a response with context outlining some of the actual difficulties involved in what might at first seem like a simple question.
-Preceptor

 

[Todjaeger]

Thank you, Preceptor.

At present, without more information (a good deal more information for that matter), the question really is a hypothetical fantasy land-type question.
As such, I certainly understand why the Mod team would have little appetite to moderate such a thread on DT.

As mentioned previously in this thread as well as elsewhere on DT, politics really does not belong on this forum. However, I am going to attempt to point out a number of political questions which would need to be answered first, in order to come up with a theoretical 'Scottish Coastguard'.

One of the first things which would need to be settled in some fashion would be the status of Scotland, if it were to break away from the United Kingdom, as well as the disposition and distribution of all UK debts and assets and what Scotland's "share" would be. Another political question which would need to be answered would be how much, as either a percentage or raw amount, would and could an independent Scotland spend on defence or defence-like matters. There would also be the question of what CONOPS would the gov't have, for a coastguard, or more importantly what roles would gov't assign to a coastguard, and what would the service expectations be? Also, what would gov't policy on deployments be?

Before anything like specific types of platforms could be suggested, and/or quantities, a degree of understanding is required on what the coastguard would be expected to do, and what resources would be available to accomplish that.

Given that Scotland is still part of the UK, and there seems little appetite on the part of gov't for another referendum any time soon, then the first part which would cover the situation Scotland would be in if it suddenly became independent cannot be answered. That in turn means that the request of the inquiry cannot be answered either due to a lack of information.

Without that and other information, this becomes an exercise in fantasy fleet building without any parameters regarding what the fleet is supposed to be capable of doing, or how much money is available raise, train and then sustain a fleet.

 

[Preceptor]

And locked again following comment.
-Preceptor